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Trinitarian Jesus-worshippers hold to the belief that Daniel 7:13-14 proves the deity of Jesus, and that he should be “worshipped”. According to trinitarians, since the Aramaic word “פלח” (Pelach) is used in the passage, then that proves the deity of the Messiah. They say, “the word פלח (Pelach) is used for God alone, and it has never been used for humans (besides Jesus).” As we will examine the verse, you will find out that the word פלח (Pelach) is used for others beside God, saints, and ministers etc.
New International Version (©2011) Daniel 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and Peoples of every language worshiped (Pelach or Pelakh) him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
The above translation is false. Why do trinitarians deliberately twist, and translate “Pelach” for a human being as “worshipped?” That is just distorting the text. Majority of translations translate “Pelach” as “serve.” A better translation would be:
English Standard Version (©2001) Daniel 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
Does “Obeying” Jesus make him God? Majority of Bible translations, even the famous KJV renders the word “serve” for Daniel 7:14. Since when did “serving”, make the person God? Here is a typical Missionary response, they will say something along the lines, “Hold on a minute, the word פלח (Pelach) is only used for God alone.” Daniel 7:14 reads as follows:
American King James Version Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Lexicons on the word פלח pĕlach
1. Hebrew-English Lexicon:
פלח (Pelach) ch., served, worshipped.[1]
2. Brown Francis:
פלח vb. Cleave (Ar… cleave; Aram. Pelach (usu.),… are til work, serve.[2]
Notice how Brown Francis has translated the word פלח (Pelach) as “til work, serve”, he doesn’t mention nothing about ‘worship.’
3. John Parkhurst:
i. To cleave, cut, or split. Occ. 2 k. Iv. 39. Job xvi. 13. Psal. Cxli. 7. Prov. Vii. 23. As a N. פלח A piece split off, a fragment, a slice. Occ Jud. Ix. 53. 1 Sam. Xxx. 12. 2 Sam. Xi. 21. Cant. Iv. 3. Job xli. 15. Like the nether פלח mill-stone, so-called either from breaking the corn in pieces of stone.
ii Pelach In a hip. Sense To cast or fling off with violence, as it were a splinter in cleaving wood (comp. Psal. Cxli 7.), to split off. Occ Job xxxix 3.
iii. Chald. Pelach to serve or worship. Dan. Iii. 12, 28. Vi 16, et al. [3]
Reading the above Hebrew-English Lexicons (dictionaries) it is quite clear that the scholars who translated the Hebrew word “pelach” does not only mean “worship”, but as shown, it has other various meanings, such as “till work, serve, cut, cleave and split.”
Christian Scholars commenting on Daniel 7:13-14
Daniel 7:13-14 has nothing to do with the future Prophecy of the Messiah. How do we know that? Well, all Christians have to do is read chapter 7 from verse 1 to verse 28, and trinitarians will realise the “Son of Man” is referring to the “Holy Saints”.
1. James L. Mays, Ph.D. is the Cyrus McCormick Professor of Hebrew and the Old Testament Emeritus at Union Theological Seminary in Richmond, Virginia. He says:
“It seems clear here that the one to whom was given dominion and glory and kingdom… and his kingdoms one that shall not be destroyed (7:14 rsv) is a human being namely, the Saints of the Most High (vv.18,22,27). That identification emerges in the exposition of the dream that Daniel receives from one of the heavenly court. The interpreter assures this community through the writer of the Book of Daniel that in a very short time- a time, two times, and half a time (v.25) – the dominion would be taken from the hands of the tyrant and given to the Saints to rule forever and ever. In short these people are the wave of the future and the future is at hand.”[4]
2. Arstein Justnes quotes Stedeul in “The time of Salvation”:
“Whatever difficulties exist with the redactional stages of this chapter in the Book of Daniel and however complicated the problem of the intended meaning of ’like a (son of) man’ v. 13 could be, one finding certain: the interpretation of the vision, Dn 7,18 speaks about a final and everlasting kingdom which will be given to ‘the saints of the Most high.’ In v. 21.22 the same group is called ‘the Saints’, in v.28 “the people of the saints of the Most high.’ They hall receive and retain forever the kingly power (v. 18.20), judgement (v. 22) and sovereignty, the greatness of all kingdoms under heaven shall be given to them, and all sovereignties shall SERVE and obey THEM (v.27). [5]
3. Biblical Scholar Arthur Samuel Peake’s commentary:
“13. Like into a son of man: the AV was wrong in translating ‘like unto son of man,’ and thus suggesting that the passage referred to the ‘son of man’ of the Gospels. The phrase simply denotes a figure in human form. There is no reference to the Messiah. In the interpretation of the vision in 18, this phrase has no place at all. The kingdom that is here given unto ‘one like unto a son of man’ is in 18 given to ‘the saints of the Most High.’” [6]
As we have read, the above scholarly quotes have made it abundantly clear that the passage does not refer to Jesus (Messiah). All three have stated that the passage (Daniel 7) is reference to the “Holy Saints”.
The “Holy Saints” receive “Pelach”:
Daniel 7:27 is very clear that the saints receive “Pelach”, but the new translations of the Bible, have twisted the passage and made it out that Jesus is the one who is receiving this “service”, not the Saints. Let’s now readhow they deceptively twist Daniel 7:27:
New International Version (©2011) Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’
New Living Translation (©2007) Then the sovereignty, power, and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be given to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will last forever, and all rulers will serve and obey him.“
We see from the above passages that the “Kingdom under heaven” will be handed over to the “Holy people” i.e., the “the saints”. At the end of the verse, desperate trinitarian scholars have added the word “him” to make it out to people that the person, that the passage is referring to is the Messiah, and thus he should receive “worship”. Now here is the problem, if we take a closer look in the Aramaic text, the word “him”, is not even there. It is not even part of the text. Daniel 7 verse 27 ends with the words, “and all rulers will serve and obey” and stop! So if we just take a look at the passage without the word “Him” added by trinitarians, it is crystal clear that the ones who will receive “Pelach”, just like Daniel 7:14 are the “Saints.”
Here is a screenshot, word for word from a Christian website, for Daniel 7:27, and see for yourselves the word “him” is not in the passage:
[7]
“Holy Saints” receive Pelach
This next section I will show a list of different Bible translations that agree, and say that Daniel 7:27 refers to the”Holy saints” who will receive “Pelach”. Look out for the word “them” at the end of each different Bible translation:
1. Concordant Version of the Old Testament Daniel 7:27 And the Kingdom and the jurisdiction and the majesty of the kingdom under the entire heavens will be granted to the people of the saints of the supremacies. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all other authorities shall serve and hearken to them.
2. New Century version Daniel 7:27 – Then the holy people who belong to the Most High God will have the power to rule. They will rule over all the kingdoms under heaven with power and greatness, and their power to rule will last forever. People from all the other kingdoms will respect and serve them.’
3. The Message Daniel 7:27 – Then the royal rule and the authority and the glory of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the people of the High God. Their royal rule will last forever. All other rulers will serve and obey them.’
4. English revised version Daniel 7:27 – Then God’s special people will rule the kingdom. And they will rule over all the people from all the kingdoms of earth. This kingdom will last forever. And people from all the other kingdoms will respect and serve them.’
5. God’s word Translation Daniel 7:27 – The kingdom, along with the power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven, will be given to the holy people of the Most High. Their kingdom is eternal. All other powers will serve and obey them.”
6. Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) Daniel 7:27 Then the kingdom, the rulership and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the holy people of the Most High. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will serve and obey them.
7. English Standard Version Anglicised (ESVUK) Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’
8. Expanded Bible (EXB) Daniel 7:27 Then the holy •people [ones] who belong to the Most High God [v. 18] will have the power to rule. They will rule over all the kingdoms under heaven with power and greatness, and their power to rule will last forever. People from all the other kingdoms will respect [fear] and serve [obey] them.’
9. Good News Translation (GNT) Daniel 7:27 The power and greatness of all the kingdoms on earth will be given to the people of the Supreme God. Their royal power will never end, and all rulers on earth will serve and obey them.”
10. Names of God Bible (NOG) Daniel 7:27 The kingdom, along with the power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven, will be given to the holy people of the Elyonin. Their kingdom is eternal. All other powers will serve and obey them.”
11. New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) Daniel 7:27 The kingship and dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.”
12. New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA) Daniel 7:27 The kingship and dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’
13. New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE) Daniel 7:27 The kingship and dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’
14. Revised Standard Version (RSV) Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’
15. Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE) Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’
We see from the above Bible translations clear evidence that the “Holy Saints” are the ones who receive this “Pelach.”
Question for trinitarians: if the person in Daniel 7:14 receives “Pelach” and thus makes him God, what about the Saints that receive the same in verse 27, are they all Gods? Obviously it is clear now that the Hebrew word ‘Pelach’ as claimed by trintarians being only used for God alone is false.
Montogomery James Alan, a Christian scholar comments on Daniel 7:27:
“Note; inf. V.27 the people of the saints are the object of this SERVICE…” [8]
Notice how James Alan says the people in verse 27 receive this “service” (pelach).
“Holy Saints” will be given Authority & rule forever:
The hard-headed missionaries will say, “what about verse 14:- “He was given authority, glory and sovereign power… His rule is eternal–it will never end. His kingdom will never be destroyed.”
That still does not make the person God! If we use the same Christian logic, what about the Saints who will be given authority to reign forever, just like in verse 14? How can the person that is “GIVEN AUTHORITY” be God? If the person is given that authority, and given the Kingdom, that means the person at the first place never owned it, and the person is subservient and under God’s authority. Read the following passages:
Daniel 7:18 “But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever-yes, for ever and ever.’“
Daniel 7:22 “until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgement in favour of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.”
Daniel 7:27 “And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; their kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them.’“
The evidences presented is quite overwhelming! Thoroughly refutes the idea trinitarians hold on to, that the passage somehow approves/sanctions the worshipping of the Messiah.
A) Daniel 7:13-14 does not prove Jesus’s deity. B) The passage does not refer to the Messiah (Jesus) but the saints, this is according to the 3 Christian Scholars quoted. C) The Aramaic word Pelach (serve) is not exclusively for God alone, but used for the “Holy saints” as-well. [9]
References:
[1] London, S. Bagster & sons limited; New York, J. Pott & co Hebrew English Lexicon (1898), page 210
[2] Brown, Francis, 1849-1916; Robinson, Edward, 1794-1863; Driver, S. R. (Samuel Rolles), 1846-1914; Briggs, Charles A. (Charles Augustus), 1841-1913; Gesenius, Wilhelm, 1786-1842. A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament: with and appendix containing the Biblical Aramiac (1906) page 812
[3] Parkhurst, John, 1728-1797 An Hebrew and English Lexicon Page 549
[4] James L Mays, Harper collins Bible commentary, page 630
[5] Arstein Justnes. The time of salvation, page 164
[6] Arthur Samuel Peake. A Commentary on the Bible page 529
[7] http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=7&v=27&t=KJV#conc/27
[8] Montgomery, James A. (James Alan), (1866-1949) A Critical and exegetical commentary on the book of Daniel (1927), page 304
[9] “Does Daniel say that the nations will “worship” the one like a son of man?”, (31 June, 2018), http://www.postost.net/2018/06/does-daniel-say-nations-will-worship-one-son-man#comment-7695
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Reblogged this on Reposting for Islam.
I can prove it,,but not by the books you have chosen,,I am a full Blooded Jew,,now if you want to work with true books I will,,but you must use the true book and not some stuff that you have put together or picked up along the way,,,I will give you a real simple one to start with,,a book that God Chose us Jews to have Him dictate to,,,now here it is real simple,Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Here is another from the First Jew,,who also is the father of Ishmael,,, Genesis 22:8
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Here is a testimony of That Lamb sent,,John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. anything else Martin ?
1. Was this a prophecy about Jesus?
2. Did Jesus have (or will have) everlasting kingdom? Did the author of the Book expect his/her readers to believe that God (‘the Ancient of Days’) was going to abdicate (forever) in favour of someone looking like a man?
3. Did Jesus come to serve or be served?
Matthew 20:25-28
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It shall not be so among you; but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; 28 even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Mark 10:45
For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Luke 22:27
New International Version (NIV)
27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
Masha’Allah Great points Brother Shiraz.
No one, confident of his/her stand goes to great lengths to prove the futility of the belief of others. I tell you what, you muslims are trying so desperately to do so because you don’t have a hope for eternity. Mind your worship and let God be Judge
Nehemiah Luke
Thank you for your comment. We Muslims are not desperate, we just showed you how desperate your Trinitarian Scholars are, twisting the Scripture to suit their desires.
Plus everything I brought to the table (the evidence) were ALL Christian sources.
Sounds like a bunch of rhetoric. Anyways restricting proof of Jesus’ divinity to the Old Testament is ridiculous anyways. Not to mention that if it were demonstrated that your view of Daniel 7 were shown to be incorrectly understood you may very well say that you don’t believe the Old Testament is from God anyways so what is the point of the entire challenge?
Have you considered Micah 5:4 at all?
Excuse me…Micah 5:2
◄ Micah 5:2 ►
New International Version (©2011)
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
I dont see how the above verse is linked to the Messiah and automatically makes him God?
Can you show me where it says the Person will be Divine in that passage and it refers to the Messiah?
“But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever-yes, for ever and ever.’ “(Daniel 7:18)
i have a few questions to flesh worshippers like you. if the saints POSSESS the kingdom forever and ever does that mean that their flesh would last forever and ever?
Hi Roger
“Bunch of rhetoric” <—
First of All, I said from the start that if the Messiah is going to be God-Incarnate, shouldn't there be at-least few verses that speak about such a thing?
If I "incorrectly understood" the passage why dont you respond to the points I have raised and try correct me?
I didn’t reply to any point you made because I don’t clearly see a point. Even in the commentaries you’ve listed by Christians I don’t see any statement which shows how this is not referring to the Messiah in Daniel 7. Of course the Bible says that all the saints will be ruling together with Jesus. This is also clearly contrasted with the Messiah who is able to approach the Father, and have all of the nations serving Him as the absolute King of the nations. This is clearly happening in this passage. The saints will not rule over the creation in the same way that the Messiah will, although they will join in and receive a portion, the Bible clearly distinguishes between the Christian’s crown and right to rule and Jesus’s crown and right to rule as King of Kings. However, the point I was trying to make about the typical Muslim view of the Bible is that it does not matter if anyone goes into detail in explaining the Bible because Muslims usually challenge Christians to interpret the Bible like Muslims do, but when Christians don’t do so Muslims simply say that they believe the Bible is corrupt…so what is the point of discussing the Christian interpretation of the Bible when both the Bible and the Christian interpretation of the Bible are usually dismissed out of hand?
Micah 5:2 prophesies that the Messiah will be from ancient times. How will someone born be from ancient times? The prophet Ezekiel says that God will live among the people and be their God, Zechariah says that the people will pierce God Himself, and the New Testament picks up on this language saying that “all will see Him, even those who pierced Him.” In any event, what you seem to be asking for is an exact set of words which say, “Jesus will come, as a God-man and save the world in His death and resurrection.” That’s not a sound way to reason, I doubt you read or look at Islam in such a way.
/////I didn’t reply to any point you made because I don’t clearly see a point. Even in the commentaries you’ve listed by Christians I don’t see any statement which shows how this is not referring to the Messiah in Daniel 7./////
The reason you did NOT reply, because you have no arguments to refute it.
//////////////////Of course the Bible says that all the saints will be ruling together with Jesus. This is also clearly contrasted with the Messiah who is able to approach the Father, and have all of the nations serving Him as the absolute King of the nations. This is clearly happening in this passage. The saints will not rule over the creation in the same way that the Messiah will, although they will join in and receive a portion, the Bible clearly distinguishes between the Christian’s crown and right to rule and Jesus’s crown and right to rule as King of Kings. However, the point I was trying to make about the typical Muslim view of the Bible is that it does not matter if anyone goes into detail in explaining the Bible because Muslims usually challenge Christians to interpret the Bible like Muslims do, but when Christians don’t do so Muslims simply say that they believe the Bible is corrupt…so what is the point of discussing the Christian interpretation of the Bible when both the Bible and the Christian interpretation of the Bible are usually dismissed out of hand?////////////////
Roger you have ignored THREE CHRISTIAN Scholars work. The 2 Christian commentators of the Bible are very clear that Daniel 7:13-14 is not referring to the Messiah. I have not seen any evidence from your side that somehow supports your stand that Daniel 7:13-14 is about the Messiah. Where in that Daniel 7 does it say they will “receive a portion?”<–
What you are eluding is that they will receive a “TINY” portion of this kingdom, I just realised you made that up. Nowhere in Daniel 7 does it say anything like that. I recommend you read Daniel 7:18, 22, 27.
////////////Micah 5:2 prophesies that the Messiah will be from ancient times. How will someone born be from ancient times? The prophet Ezekiel says that God will live among the people and be their God, Zechariah says that the people will pierce God Himself, and the New Testament picks up on this language saying that “all will see Him, even those who pierced Him.” In any event, what you seem to be asking for is an exact set of words which say, “Jesus will come, as a God-man and save the world in His death and resurrection.” That’s not a sound way to reason, I doubt you read or look at Islam in such a way./////////////
How is Micah 5:2 somehow supporting the deity of the Messiah? The same words that are used in Micah 5:2 for “old day”s is used for Micah 7:14 for the people Israel- How come you don’t worship the people of Israel as GODS?
Another verse where it says “ANCIENT DAYS” just as Daniel 5:2 is the following passage:
Daniel 7:20 You will cast all our[g] sins
Into the depths of the sea.
You will give truth to Jacob
And mercy to Abraham,
Which You have sworn to our fathers
From days of old.
Go to this Christian website, they will give you word for word Hebrew/English what each word means:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
Notice how the exact same words are used from Micah 5:2 and 7:20 but somehow the Trinitarian’s put “ANCIENT DAYS” for Micah 5:2 but for Micah 7:20 “from days of old.” I think by now Roger you have realised that your Scholars are bunch of liars, twisting the scripture, to suit their pagan way.
Plus do please give me the exact passages for the other verses that “SOMEHOW” proves the deity of the Messiah in the Old Testament.
“The saints will not rule over the creation in the same way that the Messiah will, although they will join in and receive a portion, the Bible clearly distinguishes between the Christian’s crown and right to rule and Jesus’s crown and right to rule as King of Kings.”
old testament has many times , in its stories, MADE DISTINCTION between MASTER and slave. now if the saints were many RANKS below the messiah ,why would there be no DISTINCTION in wording? either there is CONTRADICTION in the ot or the saints , according to daniel WERE at the SAME level as the “one like a son of man” and the HEBREW makes NO distinction. you christians have been shot again in the face.
“Bible clearly distinguishes between the Christian’s crown and right to rule and Jesus’s crown and right to rule as King of Kings”
don’t impose new testament ideas unto the verses in daniel. now lets get something straight, where did the HEBREW in daniel “distinguishes” between saints and “one like a son of man” ? each word used seems like both are co equals with same ranks.
READ IN ITS ENTIRETY——>>>http://trumpetcallofgod.com/pdfs/more_man.pdf
Hi Jeffrey
Thank you for the link
I have addressed Isaiah 7:13-16 about the Child “Immanuel” In the following link—>
https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/06/22/immanuel-prophecy-of-jesus/
I have also written an article on Isaiah 9:6 and I thoroughly responded to all the Trinitarian points they have raised to prove the deity of the Child—>
https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/06/25/isaiah-96-messiah-god/
Hello Kaleef,
Hope you are well today. 🙂 I do not claim to be a Trinitarian, The link I posted does not defend this doctrine or position at all. So any Trinitarian debate or points mean nothing to me. I don’t even claimed to be a Christian—the term is too broad, too worldly, too secular and too religious. Rather I am a follower of THE WAY, Acts 24:14.
I am a follower of the ONE WAY, ONE TRUTH and ONE LIFE who is Jesus the Christ, John 14:6, Yahushua Hamasciach who is also Yahuwah the Father,(YHWH) for the Father and Son are ONE, Amen, amen and amen.
My link does not come from a “Trinitarian” position as this position is seriously flawed. Not all “christians” are Trinitarians. I am just trying to come in from a entirely different “angle” 🙂
So keep that in mind if you should decide to read my link thoroughly, if you decide you want to challenge yourself.
Thank you for taking the time to read my link, if you decide to do so.
Your humble servant in Yahushua’s LOVE,
Jeffrey
Hi Brother Jeffrey I am good, thanks.Yes I believe the people who did not accept “HIM” at his own time, they will not see God Almighty, meaning they wont enter Heaven (John 14:6). My bad I assumed you were a Trinitarian. I will read what is in the Link God willing when I have time soon.
Peace
This link has some targums which support the use of Pelach
http://lhim.org/blog/2011/08/03/the-use-of-%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%97-to-serve-in-daniel/
“Gen. 29:18
וּרְחֵים יַעֲקוֹב, יָת רָחֵל; וַאֲמַר, אֶפְלְחִנָּךְ שְׁבַע שְׁנִין, בְּרָחֵל בְּרַתָּךְ, זְעֵירְתָא.
And Jacob loved Rachel and said “I will serve you 7 years for Rachel your younger daughter.”
Gen. 30:26
הַב יָת נְשַׁי וְיָת בְּנַי, דִּפְלַחִית יָתָךְ בְּהוֹן–וְאֵיזֵיל: אֲרֵי אַתְּ יְדַעְתְּ, יָת פֻּלְחָנִי דִּפְלַחְתָּךְ.
“Give to me my wives and children for which I served, for you know the service with which I served you.
The words in italics indicate the presence of the root פלח in the original Aramaic. In these examples Jacob refers to the service or work that he rendered to a human, Laban.
Gen. 14:4
תַּרְתַּא עַסְרֵי שְׁנִין, פְּלַחוּ יָת כְּדָרְלָעֹמֶר; וּתְלָת עַסְרֵי שְׁנִין, מְרַדוּ.
For 12 years they served Kedarla‘omer and in the 13th year they rebelled.
In this example פלח refers to service offered to a human, a king. “
Thanks for that Brother Semsav I was thinking about using the Targum info. I might consider adding it to article. Thanks again Akhee.
The purpose of a religion is a selfish to become a selfless
‘TRUE ESSENCE OF RELIGIONS’ To unite all
http://www.fazelsubian.com
All I am trying to say is, don’t try to dispute someone’s faith… Rather, in love and example, Preach your message. Don’t judge! Is that too much to ask for?
All this confusion concerning the verb “to serve” is a direct result of the use of antiquated translations such as KJPV, and the insistence of even modern Jewish translations on continuing to use the old-fashioned terms invariably employed by christians (who are terrified of the word “work” because they associate it in their minds with “the devil’s works”).Serving (עָבוֹד ‘avod) is what a servant (עֶֽבֶד ‘ĕvĕd) does. Is it true to say that a servant worships his master/owner as a god? Of course not; he just WORKS for him. The Hebrew root עבד (“to work”) is used on numerous occasions throughout the T’nach, both in the sense of “working” for a master or employer and also in the sense of “working” for God and the Aramaic root פלח is used similarly nine times in the Aramaic passages of Daniyyél (2:4b-7:28) and Ezra (4:8-6:18, 7:12-26). This is yet another example of the way christian translators cunningly employ English usages from the 17th century, which their unwitting contemporary readers are—quite understandably—unfamiliar with, to mislead and deceive them.Note that, as I mentioned in Post #12, the Aramaic root עבד, although consisting of exactly the same three letters, actually has the slightly different meaning “to do” or “to make”; for example, it has this meaning in the only Aramaic verse in the entire N’viyim division of the T’nach—כִּדְנָה֙ תֵּֽאמְר֣וּן לְה֔וֹם אֱלָ֣הַיָּ֔א דִּֽי־שְׁמַיָּ֥א וְאַרְקָ֖א לָ֣א עֲבַ֑דוּ יֵאבַ֧דוּ מֵֽאַרְעָ֛א וּמִן־תְּח֥וֹת שְׁמַיָּ֖א אֵֽלֶּה׃“This is what you are to tell them: ‘The gods that didn’t make the heavens and the earth will be destroyed from the earth and from below these heavens….’ ” (Yirm’yahu 10:11)This might be helpful
From askmorochai
FROM askmordochai:
1. the word “yiflechun” (more accurately yifl’ḥun) is spelt יִפְלְחוּן (yod, pé, lammed, ḥet, vav, nun) in Aramaic and the root is פלח (pé, lammed, ḥet).
2. There is considerable scope for confusion on this point because there is a Hebrew root עבד and also an
Aramaic root עבד (i.e. exactly the same letters), but they have different meanings:
In Hebrew, the root עבד means to work, and the corresponding Aramaic root is פלח.
In Aramaic, the root עבד means to do or to make, and the corresponding Hebrew root is עשה.
3. It is not easy to provide Scriptural evidence to refute the claim that the Aramaic verb פלח is only used in connection with God or with idols, because that root simply does not occur enough times in the text—the verb is actually only used nine times in the Aramaic passages of the T’nach (the 3rd person singular of the simple past tense פָּלַח palaḥ “he worked” twice in Daniyyél 6:17, 6:21 and its plural פָּֽלְחִין pal’ḥin “they worked” in Daniyyél 3:12, 3:14, 3:17, 3:18; and the 3rd person plural of the simple future tense יִפְלְחוּן yifl’ḥun “they will work” in Daniyyél 3:28, 7:14, 7:27), and the related nouns לְפָלְחָן l’fol’ḥan (“for the work of…”) and וּפָֽלְחֵי ufal’ḥei (“the workers of…”) occur only once each—in Ezra 7:19, 7:24 respectively.
What I can offer you is an excerpt from the text of the k’tubbah, the marriage contract that every Jewish bride receives setting out her marital rights and the undertakings that her husband makes to her in connection with their marriage. In this part of the document, the bridegroom makes a solemn declaration to his bride undertaking to maintain and support her—
“הֲוִי לִי לְאִנְתּוּ כְּדַת מֹשֶׁה וְיִשְׂרָאֵל וְאֲנָא אֶפְלֹחַ וְאוֹקִיר וְאֵיזוֹן וַאֲפַרְנֵס יְתִיכִי לִיכִי כְּהִלְכוֹת גֻּבְרִין יְהוּדָאִין דְּפָֽלְחִין וּמוֹקְרִין וְזַנִין וּמְפַרְנְסִין לִנְשֵׁיהוֹן בְּקֻשְׁטָא….”
“Be thou my wife according to the law of Mosheh and of Yisraél, and I will work for, cherish, feed and [financially] support you, in the manner of all Jewish men who faithfully work for, cherish, feed and [financially] support their wives….”
The words set in red are both inflections of the same verb we have been discussing, i.e. פלח “to work”—but there is no suggestion of the husband “worshipping” his wife as a god/goddess.
All this confusion concerning the verb “to serve” is a direct result of the use of antiquated translations such as KJPV, and the insistence of even modern Jewish translations on continuing to use the old-fashioned terms invariably employed by christians (who are terrified of the word “work” because they associate it in their minds with “the devil’s works”).Serving (עָבוֹד ‘avod) is what a servant (עֶֽבֶד ‘ĕvĕd) does.
Is it true to say that a servant worships his master/owner as a god? Of course not; he just WORKS for him. The Hebrew root עבד (“to work”) is used on numerous occasions throughout the T’nach, both in the sense of “working” for a master or employer and also in the sense of “working” for God and the Aramaic root פלח is used similarly nine times in the Aramaic passages of Daniyyél (2:4b-7:28) and Ezra (4:8-6:18, 7:12-26).
This is yet another example of the way christian translators cunningly employ English usages from the 17th century, which their unwitting contemporary readers are—quite understandably—unfamiliar with, to mislead and deceive them.
Note that, as I mentioned in Post #12, the Aramaic root עבד, although consisting of exactly the same three letters, actually has the slightly different meaning “to do” or “to make”; for example,
it has this meaning in the only Aramaic verse in the entire N’viyim division of the T’nach—
כִּדְנָה֙ תֵּֽאמְר֣וּן לְה֔וֹם אֱלָ֣הַיָּ֔א דִּֽי־שְׁמַיָּ֥א וְאַרְקָ֖א לָ֣א עֲבַ֑דוּ יֵאבַ֧דוּ מֵֽאַרְעָ֛א וּמִן־תְּח֥וֹת שְׁמַיָּ֖א אֵֽלֶּה׃
“This is what you are to tell them: ‘The gods that didn’t make the heavens and the earth will be destroyed from the earth and from below these heavens….’ ” (Yirm’yahu 10:11)This might be helpful
“Plus do please give me the exact passages for the other verses that “SOMEHOW” proves the deity of the Messiah in the Old Testament.”
“and the New Testament picks up on this language saying that “all will see Him, even those who pierced Him.”
notice how john has used the stabbing of jesus’ side to his apologetic advantage. if this was FICTION , then john placed alledged eyewitnesses in FICTION and preplans a narrative which will help him support his case .
john: appearance 1
It being, therefore, evening, on that day(day of alledged ressurection), the first of the sabbaths, and the doors having been shut where the disciples were assembled, through fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith to them, ‘Peace to you;’ 20and this having said, he shewed them his hands and side; the disciples, therefore, rejoiced…. 21jesus, therefore, said to them again…’
Appearance 2
And after eight days, again were his disciples within, and Thomas with them…saith to Thomas, ‘Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put [it] to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.’
3rd appearance @ the Sea of Galilee
this [is] now a third time Jesus was manifested to his disciples, having been raised from the dead.
The Road to Emmaus luke: app 1
13And, lo, two of them were going on during that day to a village, distant sixty furlongs from Jerusalem…
28And they came nigh to the village whither they were going, and he made an appearance of going on further, 29and they constrained him, saying, ‘Remain with us, for it is toward evening,’ and the day did decline, and he went in to remain with them. 30And it came to pass, in his reclining (at meat) with them, having taken the bread, he blessed, and having broken, he was giving to them, 31and their eyes were opened…’ 33And they, having risen up the same hour, turned back to Jerusalem, and found gathered together the eleven, and those with them…
36and as they are speaking these things, jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith to them, ‘Peace — to you;’ 37and being amazed, and becoming affrighted, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit. 39see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having…. 41and while they are not believing from the joy, and wondering, he said to them, ‘Have ye anything here to eat?’ 42and they gave to him part of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb, 43and having taken, he did eat before them,
And, lo, I do send the promise of my Father upon you, but ye — abide ye in the city of Jerusalem till ye be clothed with power from on high.’
And he led them forth without — unto Bethany, and having lifted up his hands he did bless them, 51and it came to pass, in his blessing them, he was parted from them, and was borne up to the heaven
Matthew
women report to deciples on day of alledged ressurection:
“And they remembered his sayings, 9and having turned back from the tomb told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest”
16And the eleven disciples went to Galilee (Galilee is some 70 miles distance from Jerusalem) , to the mount where jesus appointed them, 17and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver. 18And having come near, jesus spake to them…
notice that it is only john who says that thomas put his finger in jesus’ side?
notice that both matthew and luke have deciples look at jesus’ body, but not one of them, including mark, mention the stab wound /hole in the side of jesus? jesus CAME near…
jesus tries to prove that he isn’t a spirit in luke and tells his deciples to look @ his hands and feet and to “handle him” because spirits don’t have flesh/bones. then jesus eats fish. notice that the hole in the side caused by the stab is NOT mentioned? if it was noticable like a massive wound and if the wound convinced doubting tom , then why did luke bypass it and FOCUS on other parts? why would that be?
1.
“Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.
37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.d
38The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.e 39And when the centurion,f who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died,* he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!
matthew
“Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.d
51At that moment the curtain of the templee was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks splitf 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and* went into the holy cityg and appeared to many people.
54When the centurion and those with him who were guardingh Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”i
Luke 23
44 It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
47 The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” 48 When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away.
WHY ? no post ressurected jesus has a STAB wound in his SIDE because none of the synoptics have jesus STABBED by one of the guards. if you are honest with yourself you will admit that something is fishy here.after declaring jesus “son of god” and a guard seeing the people ” beat their breasts” somebody decides to grab a sword and stab jesus on the cross? how likely is that if you only had the synoptic stories? this is not “complementary detail” this is FRAUD created to fill in a gap CREATED by the synoptics.
notice that not only is the stabbing of jesus not mention before his alledged ressurection , but no hole in jesus’ side is focused on AFTER his alledged ressurection, a strange thing, considering that synopicts left out clues for the stabbing.
test
Click to access Micah5_1.pdf
Masha’Allah Great work Br. MANSUBZERO
it is not a work by me. it is a work by uri yosef from messiah truth forums. i find one thing funny. the christians tell the jews that yhwh got murdered by the romans and the jews say that they sent jesus to his death and here is what i find sad, each is united on bombing palestine yet disunited on what is holy to them.
what i find sad is their unity on BOMBING palistine and what i find funny is thier disunity on what is very holy to them.
may i ask what your opinion is on the post posted on POSTED BY MANSUBZERO | JULY 10, 2013, 8:05 PM above the LINK i posted? if the stabbing of jesus was “prophecy” and it was also used as proof to convince doubting tom, why did the synoptics feel that it is better to inform about so called prophecies which talk about divinding jesus’ clothes? note in the post above how each synoptic writer misses opportunity to inform listeners about the hole in jesus’ side even though each focuses on jesus’ flesh? doesn’t something look at here? it is as if the christians are INVENTING because they are thinking that thier DOUBT may occur in thier audiences and so they must fix up the problem.
mark:
33At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. 34And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).b
35When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”
36Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.
37With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.
38The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, saw how he died,c he said, “Surely this man was the Son of God!”
40Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph,d and Salome. 41In Galilee these women had followed him and cared for his needs. Many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem were also there.
luke:
44It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”e When he had said this, he breathed his last.
47The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised God and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” 48When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away. 49But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things.
john:
The Death of Jesus
28Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,”c 37and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”d
mark:44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
john: 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
now here is something strange, matthew has judas full fill a prophecy
Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”
matthew says:
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection ande went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”
in matthew conclusion, he ADDS the words
but some doubted
and he also says
Then Jesus came to them and said.
11 deciples, 70 miles away from jerusalem see jesus’ flesh, but some doubted.
would you really want to tell your community “SOME doubted” and not tell them how the doubt was answered?
if the guards REPORT became FAMOUS AND known to every jew, then MATTHEW wasted money and space tell a community what they ALREADY knew. what he should have told his community was HOW 70 miles away from jerusalem, the doubt was answered.
he can have jesus COME near and speak, but he can’t have deciples focus on jesus’ side?
john:Peace to you;’ 20and this having said, he shewed them his hands and side; the disciples, therefore, rejoiced…. 21jesus, therefore, said to them again…’
SEE something here? jesus’ FIRST appearance in john has the deciples LOOK @ jesus’ SIDE
john will later use jesus’ SIDE to answer toms doubts.
matthew says “some doubted” and mark says “they didn’t say nothing to anyone because they were afraid” so this means the women were not filled with joy otherwise they would have opened thier mouths and if they had FAITH , they would HAVE opened thier MOUTHS.
LUKE:
36and as they are speaking these things, jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith to them, ‘Peace — to you;’ 37and being amazed, and becoming affrighted, they were thinking themselves to see a spirit. 39see my hands and my feet, that I am he; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having…. 41and while they are not believing from the joy, and wondering, he said to them, ‘Have ye anything here to eat?’ 42and they gave to him part of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb, 43and having taken, he did eat before them,
here you would think the hole in jesus’ SIDE would be brought to the deciples ATTENTION, but lukes jesus’ is only contrasting spirit jesus from flesh jesus and if flesh jesus HAD a pierced side, then why wasn’t that handled?
another intersting thing to note is that johns jesus does not eat fish. why would demi god in his post ressurected body consume meat? and where would that meat go after digestion? so this could be one reason why john does not want to attribte disgestion to his jesus.
Reblogged this on الله أحد.
The son of man in Daniel’s prophecy is not Jesus alone it is in reality prophet Muhammad upon whom be peace becoz that everlasting kingdom is the shariah which prophet Muhammad peace on him brought from god which is implemented to this day and will be implemented even by Jesus until end times also Daniel saw the son of man presented before god that is ascencion of prophet Muhammad peace on him to heaven on miraj also interestingly It says Daniel saw this vision in night the ascension of holy prophet Mohammed took in night
Reblogged this on Blogging Theology and commented:
worth a read…
The problem with the screen shot is they do not analyze each word – ( this is from http://www.blueletterbible.org – it is the same, but go there and put in Daniel 7 and see the verses above and below, not just the parsing box. the parsing box does not have every word, and only the parsing box was in the screen shot.)
Both Daniel 7:14 and 7:27 have לֵהּ = “to him” (singular)
7:14 has it twice.
וְלֵהּ = “and to him” (at the beginning, “And to him was given . . )
לֵהּ = “to him” (before the word for serve, worship, פלח
7:14 וְלֵהּ יְהִיב שָׁלְטָן וִיקָר וּמַלְכוּ וְכֹל עַֽמְמַיָּא אֻמַיָּא וְלִשָּׁנַיָּא לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן שָׁלְטָנֵהּ שָׁלְטָן עָלַם דִּֽי־לָא יֶעְדֵּה וּמַלְכוּתֵהּ דִּי־לָא תִתְחַבַּֽל׃
7:27 וּמַלְכוּתָה וְשָׁלְטָנָא וּרְבוּתָא דִּי מַלְכְוָת תְּחֹות כָּל־שְׁמַיָּא יְהִיבַת לְעַם קַדִּישֵׁי עֶלְיֹונִין מַלְכוּתֵהּ מַלְכוּת עָלַם וְכֹל שָׁלְטָנַיָּא לֵהּ יִפְלְחוּן וְיִֽשְׁתַּמְּעֽוּן׃
Also, פלח, was translated in the LXX (The Septuagint) into Greek by λατρευω (λατρευουσα – “worshipping”
λατρευω / latreuo – is only used of worship and serving God. That is why Jesus said in Matthew 4:10 – “. . . you shall worship the LORD your God and serve Him only.” – Jesus quoting from Deuteronomy 6:13 and 10:20.
The saints also receive the kingdom also – Revelation 5:9-10 interprets Daniel 7. after Revelation 5:9 comes Revelation 5:10. Rev. 5:9 is about people redeemed from all nations by the blood of the lamb and throughout the chapter they are worshiping Him who sits on the throne and the lamb. (see Revelation 5:13-14)
but also Rev. 5:10 says, “you have made them (the saints who have been bought by the blood of the lamb from all nations in verse 9) to be a kingdom of priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”
Plus Jesus Al Masih Himself quotes both Daniel 7:13-14 and Psalm 110 that it is about Him as “the Son of Man” who goes up to the ancient of Days on the clouds of heaven, and that He will sit at the right hand of Power (The Most High, God the Father), in Mark 14:60-64, and the Jews and the high priest and Pharisees understood that He was claiming to the Messiah, the Son of God. “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” Jesus said, “I am”.
With the name of Allah the Gracious the Merciful
Daniel 7:13-14
Daniel 7: 13 actually was a vision (a dream) and does not talk about “a son of man”; it actually says כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ k’var enash, “[something] like a human being” not var enash בַר אֱנָשׁ . The Kaf ( כ ) here provides an important distinction.
Daniel 7: 14 does not say anything about anyone “worshipping” anybody; the word it actually uses is יִפְלְחוּן “yiflechun”, “they will serve [in the sense of work for] him”.
Yiflechun is a conjugated Aramaic verb (root פלח (pé, lammed, ḥet) that means “they will serve”. It does not necessarily mean worship as in worship to God but can mean to serve holy men.
Right on the same chapter we read in 27 that
And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under all the heavens will be given to the people of the high holy ones יְהִיבַת לְעַם קַדִּישֵׁי עֶלְיוֹנִין; its kingdom is a perpetual kingdom, and all dominions will serve יִפְלְחוּן and obey (them).
It is clear that this is the Holy people who receive this service.
Sacra scriptura sui ipsius interpres
you can’t write correct English so why should we take your post seriously? you wrote “he doesn’t mention nothing about ‘worship'” – that’s a double negative, which is a serious grammatical error
I’m Daniel servernt of the most high God and The bride of Jesus Christ Mathew 24:15 Unsealed
Mathew 24:15 Unsealed