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This article is a thorough refutation to Hadith-rejecters. As we will examine, the Prophet was sent by God (Allah) to explain, teach and to instruct with wisdom the Quran. This evidence alone will show that Hadith are part of the Deen of Islam. At the end of this article there will be another section, where Mufti Taqi Usmani, will prove from Quranic passages that the Prophet (p) received two kinds of revelations from Allah.
1. ALLAH SAYS TO “OBEY THE MESSENGER”
Say Obey Allah and the Messenger. But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the disbelievers. [Quran 3:32]
And whoso obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad) then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace, of the Prophets, the Siddiqun (those followers of the Prophets who were first and foremost to believe in them, like Abu Bakr As-Siddiq the martyrs, and the righteous. And how excellent these companions are! [Quran 4:69]
They ask you (O Muhammad)about the spoils of war. Say: “The spoils are for Allah and the Messenger.” So fear Allah and adjust all matters of difference among you, and obey Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad), if you are believers. [Quran 8:1]
O you who believe! Obey Allah and His Messenger, and turn not away from him (i.e. Messenger Muhammad) while you are hearing. [Quran 8:20]
The believers, men and women, are Auliya’ (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another; they enjoin (on the people) Al-Ma’ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar (i.e. polytheism and disbelief of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); they perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give the Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. [Quran 9:71]
He who obeys the Messenger has indeed obeyed Allah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you as a watcher over them. [Quran 4:80]
As we have read the above verses, Allah has made it clear that Obedience to the Prophet is obedience to Him. There are two distinct commands in the verses shown.
1. “Obey Allah” = Quran
2. “Obey the Messenger” = Prophet Muhammed (p) Sunnah
I have heard from some Hadith-rejecters, telling me that “Obeying the Messenger”, doesn’t mean obeying the prophet Muhammed (p). According to these self-made scholars, it means to obey the Quran. Here is a challenge for Hadith rejecters. Show me one verse in the entire Quran, where Allah says, “obey the messenger”, means to ‘obey the Quran?’
2. AUTHORITY OF PROPHET MUHAMMED (P)
It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. [Quran 33:36]
And what Allah restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns – it is for Allah and for the Messenger and for [his] near relatives and orphans and the [stranded] traveller – so that it will not be a perpetual distribution among the rich from among you. And whatever the Messenger has given you – take; and what he has forbidden you – refrain from. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty. [Quran 59:7]
But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. [Quran 4:65]
O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad, pbuh), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. [Quran 4:59]
In the above verse (quran 4:59) Allah says, “if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah AND HIS Messenger”. As you see, this is enough proof that prophet Muhammed (p) was more than just a delivery-man. This verse (Quran 4:59) proves that he (the Prophet) was more than just delivering the Quran. It also proves, that if we as Muslims have any dispute in matters of religion, we should refer it back to his Messenger, Muhammed (p). As Allah stated at the end of the verse (Quran 4:59), “If you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.”
Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. [Quran 7:157]
If you have read clearly in the above verses Allah has made it clear that the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) has Authority by Allah to prohibit and allow:
“He allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad.” [Quran 7:157]
This is another beautiful verse, where Allah states clearly that the Messenger has authority to prohibit and allow. The verse can’t get any clearer, you can read this in any translation, even in Arabic, and it says the same thing. The verse says, “for HE (Muhammed p) commands what is Halal and Haram”. The verse does not say, “for he commands what is Halal and Haram from the Quran.” This verse (Quran 7:157) alone should make hadith-rejecters ponder in what they’re rejecting, they go against the command of Allah.
3. PROPHET (P) WAS SENT TO EXPLAIN THE QUR’AN
With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.[Quran 16:44]
And We have not sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (O Muhammad SAW), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe. [Quran 16:64]
From the above verses it is clear like day and night that Prophet Muhammed (p) is here to explain the Quran to Mankind.
There are 5 theories going around by the Hadith-rejecters, I will respond to them one by one, God willing.
1. I have spoken to Hadith-rejecters and they tell me verses Such as 16;44 and 16:64 doesn’t say that the prophet is here to “explain”. They say the word that should be used is, the prophet Muhammed (p) is here to “make things clear” not to explain. They love playing with words.
To make clear or to explain, have the same meanings.
Below is an explanation what the words:- “Make clear” means,
A) Declare (v.)
B) illustration (n.)
C) elucidate (v.)
D) clarify (v.)
E) explain (v.)
Source:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=make+clear&searchmode=phrase
2. This second theory is really amusing. These people just make things as they go along. I read on one website, where the person was arguing that Allah didn’t want to preserve the explanations of the prophet Muhammed (p), the person was referring to Quranic verses, such as, 16:44 and 16:66.
He has mocked Allah (Astaghfiru’Allah). What he is saying is that, Allah gave the best understanding of the Quran at the time of the Prophet, while he was alive and who ever came after the prophet was a lost sheep. According to him Allah only explained the Quran to people at the time of the prophet Muhammed (p). Another thing he is saying is that Allah failed to preserve the explanations, teachings of the prophet. What this individual is doing, he is making up his own theories, making up lies not to follow Hadith and deceive people, even though deep down he knows Hadith are from the prophet Muhammed (p). I have a question for Hadith-rejecters:- since when did Allah say in the Quran, the “explanations” of the prophet are temporary while he is alive?
3. Another person came with another theory that prophet Muhammed only explained the teachings of the Quran to the Jews. His proof was the previous verse, before 16:44 and 16:64. These Quranist can’t get anything straight. First they say, ‘no the prophet was sent only to deliver the Quran’, and nothing else. Now they change their mind and say, “no the prophet only allowed to explain to Jews.” This is ridiculous, if prophet was sent to explain the Quran to the Jews, what about the Muslims? So if a Muslim was struggling, understanding a verse of the Quran, are we to assume, going by their own understanding that the prophet wouldn’t explain the verse to a Muslim?
4. Another thing they believe, not all of them, but some do. They say, the word “BaYanA” in 16:44 doesn’t mean to ‘explain’ to make clear. He says, the word that should be used is, “to show” or “to present”. They havent provided any evidence for this claim.
The word that is used in 16:44 in Arabic is “Litubayyina” – “BaYaNa”, There is only one meaning for it, it means, “explain” or to “make clear” both have the same meanings, as I demonstrated earlier. Edward Lane says the following on the Arabic word BaYaNa:
( Source: Edward Lane Lexicon Volume 1, page 288)
5. This last claim, by Hadith-rejecter is taking the biscuit. This person was bringing verses from there and there, mingling up and making his own interpretation. The person acknowledges that 16:44 is true, and that Prophet Muhammed (p) did indeed explain the Quran, but there is twist to it. He is trying to say, the prophet “explained” the Quran by using other verses from the Quran to “explain”.
“Explain” = Is to demonstrate, describing it in more detail, to make something more clear, how to do something, to interpret. If anyone reads the verse from start to end, you will see the verse is very clear, that prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is the one that will explain. The verse does not say, “he will explain through the Quran”. The person, brought other arguments that the Quran is easy to understand and that there is no need to interpret it. Here are few questions for this individual and the people who have that sort of belief.
- If the Quran is easy to understand, why does the prophet need to explain through the quran?
- Every Hadith-Rejecter I have met says “the Quran in itself is a Tafseer and explains everything.” If that is the case all the person has to do is read the Quran and he will understand the message. Why does the prophet need to interpret, explain to people to understand the Quran, if the Quran in itself is explained already?
4. PROPHET WAS SENT TO INSTRUCT THE QUR’AN WITH WISDOM
Our Lord! Send amongst them a Messenger of their own who shall recite unto them Your Verses and instruct them in the Book (this Qur’an) and Al-Hikmah (full knowledge of the Islamic laws and jurisprudence or wisdom or Prophethood), and purify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.” [Quran2:129]
It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- [Quran 62:2]
Another proof from the above passages that Prophet Muhammed (p) was to instruct people in the Quran with wisdom. What is Instructing? Here is an explanation:
in·struct
1. To furnish with knowledge, especially by a systematic method; teach; train; educate.
2.To furnish with orders or directions; direct; order; command: The doctor instructed me to diet.
3.To furnish with information; inform; apprise.
(Source: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=instruct&searchmode=none)
5. PROPHET (P) WAS SENT TO TEACH THE QUR’AN
Similarly (to complete My Blessings on you) We have sent among you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) of your own, reciting to you Our Verses (the Quran) and sanctifying you, and teaching you the Book (the Quran) and the Hikmah (i.e. Sunnah, Islamic laws and Fiqh – jurisprudence), and teaching you that which you used not to know. [Quran 2:151]
Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. [Quran 3:164]
In the above verses Allah has made it clear that the prophet (pbuh) teaches people the Quran with the wisdom.
Allah says, ‘we have sent to the believers a messenger reciting to the people his verses’. The Prophet (p) was sent to TEACH the Book (Quran) AND the WISDOM. How do we know what the prophet taught if it is not in the Quran? Where is the knowledge (wisdom) Allah gave to the Prophet (p), if it is not in the Quran?
Musa (alayhi salaam) said to him,
“May I have your company so that you teach me some of the rightful knowledge you have been given.” [Quran 18 66]
A prophet of Allah humbled himself to take knowledge from a man more knowledgeable than him. He used to receive revelations from Allah, yet he was in need of knowledge from someone who knows more? Isn’t that something to THINK about?
If Allah taught Prophet Muhammed (p) what the verses of the Quran mean, what makes you Hadith rejecters think that you don’t need a teacher to teach you? If all the Prophet (p) had to do, to understand the Quran, is to read the verses. Why then does Allah say in this verse 53;5 HE is the one that teaches the prophet what verses of the Quran mean? Here is the passage below, where Allah says that he one who teaches the Prophet.
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed. He was taught by one Mighty in Power” [Quran 53:3-5]
Questions for Hadith-rejecters:
1. How do we know what the prophet taught if it is not in the Quran?
2. Where is the knowledge (wisdom) Allah gave to the prophet if it is not in the Quran?
3. How can we (Muslims) find out what he judged in disputes so that we as Muslims can abide by it?
4. How can we as Muslims determine what the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) has ordered, in order for us to obey it?
5. How do we know what he has decided on matters of (Deen, religion), so that we can submit to it?
6. How do we discover what he the prophet Muhammed (p) has given, so that we can take it, or what he has prohibited, so we can leave it?
7. How come we have no history for you people before 200 years ago? How is it that we have not one trace in history where there were communities that rejected the sayings (Hadith) of the prophet (p)?
Prophet (pbuh) received two kinds of revelations:
Two Kinds of Revelation
It follows from the foregoing discussion that the revelation the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) received from Allâh is of two different kinds:
(i) the revelation of the Qur’ân, the Holy Book, named in the Islamic terminology as al-wahy al-matluww (the recited revelation, i.e. the revelation which can be recited in the prayers). This kind of revelation is confined to the verses of the Holy Qur’ân and is written verbally in its folds.
(ii) the revelation received by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) from time to time to let him know the pleasure of Allâh in day-to-day affairs and the details of the principles laid down in the Holy Qur’ân with their correct interpretation. This kind of revelation is called al-wahy ghair al-matluww (the unrecited revelation). This kind of revelation is not conveyed to the people verbally. It has been demonstrated through the sayings and acts of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam).
The Second Kind of Revelation Proved by the Holy Qur’ân
This second kind of revelation is not contained in the Holy Qur’ân, but the Holy Qur’ân itself not only refers to it frequently but attributes its contents to Allâh Almighty. Some verses of the Holy Book are reproduced below which clearly prove that the “revelation” is not confined to the Holy Qur’ân, but there is another kind of “wahy” which does not form part of the “Holy Book,” yet it is the revelation from Allâh Almighty:
First Example: The Holy Qur’ân says:
And We did not appoint the Qiblah on which you were earlier, but that We might know the people who follow the Messenger as distinct from those who turn back on their heels. (2:143)
In order to understand the verse, it is necessary to know the background in which it was revealed:
In the early days of Madani life, after the Holy Prophet’s (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) migration to Madinah, the Muslims were ordered to direct their faces in prayers towards Baytul-Maqdas (Jerusalem) which had been appointed as Qiblah of the Muslims. Up to seventeen months, the Muslims had been observing the Baytul-Maqdas as their Qiblah. It was after seventeen months that the Holy Qur’ân abrogated the earlier order and the Muslims were required to observe the Holy Mosque of Makkah as their Qiblah and turn their faces towards it while praying. The following verse was revealed to appoint the new Qiblah:
…So turn your face towards al-Masjid al-Haraam. (2:144)
This new order was criticized by some disbelievers and they objected on it as to why the Baytul-Maqdas was appointed as Qiblah earlier. The above quoted verse (2:143) was revealed to answer this objection. The answer was that the appointment of the former Qiblah was in order to test the people whether or not they follow the Messenger. To quote the meaning of the verse again:
And We did not appoint the Qiblah on which you were earlier, but that We might know the people who follow the Messenger… (2:143)
Here the appointment of the previous Qiblah has been attributed to Allâh Almighty, which is a clear indication to the fact that the appointment of Baytul-Maqdas as Qiblah was done by the order of Allâh Almighty Himself. But this order is nowhere in the Holy Qur’ân, and there is no verse in the Holy Book which directs the turning of faces towards Baytul-Maqdas. This order was given to Muslims by the Holy Prophet () with no reference to any verse of the Holy Qur’ân. Still, this order was mentioned by the Holy Qur’ân in the above quoted verse as the order of Allâh: The words,
“We did not appoint the Qiblah,” instead of the words,
“The Holy Prophet did not…” are too clear on this point to need more explanation.
This statement of the Holy Qur’ân, thus, evidently proves that the previous order given by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) was based on a revelation which did not form part of the Book. And this is exactly the “unrecited revelation.” The verse of the Holy Qur’ân (2:143) quoted above proves the following facts:
(a) The Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) used to receive some revelations which are not contained in the Holy Qur’ân.
(b) These revelations were from Allâh Almighty, so much so that the orders based on such revelations were attributed to Allâh Almighty.
(c) The orders based on such revelation were as binding on the believers as the orders of the first kind of revelations, i.e. the verse of the Holy Qur’ân.
(d) These orders were sometimes given so as to test whether or not the Muslims follow the Messenger (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) irrespective of the question that his orders are contained in the Holy Qur’ân or not.
Second Example: In the beginning, one of the rules followed by the Muslims in respect of the fasts of Ramadan was that even a short nap after iftaar (breaking of a fast) would nullify the permissibility of having sexual intercourse with one’s wife. So, if someone would sleep for a short while after iftaar and wake up again, he would lose the opportunity of sleeping with his wife during the rest of the night, despite that the fast was over. This rule was prescribed by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and was not contained in the Holy Qur’ân. But some Muslims broke the rule by sleeping with their wives after having a post-iftaar nap. Referring to these events, the Holy Qur’ân first admonishes those people who did not follow the rule. Then, by abrogating the same, allows the Muslims in future to sleep with their wives even when they had a nap after iftaar. In this context the Holy Qur’ân says:
It is made lawful for you, in the nights of fasts, to have sex with your women. They are a cover for you, and you are a cover for them. Allâh knew that you were betraying yourselves; so, He relented towards you and pardoned you. So, now you can have sexual intimacy with them, and seek what Allâh has destined for you, and eat and drink until the white thread of the dawn becomes distinct from the black thread; then complete the fasts up to the night. (2:187)
The following points with respect to this verse are worth consideration:
(a) The verse confirms that having sex during the nights of Ramadaan was not lawful before.
(b) The people who had sex during the nights of Ramadaan before this verse was revealed are admonished by describing their act as “betraying themselves.”
(c) The words, “so He relented towards you and pardoned you,” indicate that their sexual act was a sin, because “relenting” and “pardoning” occur only after a person commits a sin.
(d) The words “so now you can have sexual intimacy with them” denote that it is only now that the sexual act during the nights of Ramadaan has been made lawful.
All these points confirm the fact that the earlier prohibition of having sexual intercourse during the nights of Ramadaan was validly made by a competent authority, and the Muslims were bound to abide by it.
But there is no verse in the Holy Qur’ân to convey this prohibition.. It was enforced only by the Holy Prophet (). Still, the Holy Qur’ân not only confirms it, but also treats it as if it were in its own words. It is due to the fact that the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) did not enforce this prohibition by his own will, it was rather based on a revelation of Allâh Almighty which is not contained in the Holy Qur’ân.
Looked at from this angle, this verse on the one hand proves that there is a revelation which does not form part of the Holy Qur’ân, and on the other hand it reaffirms the status of the Holy Prophet () as a law-giver, and that his injunctions, both orders and prohibitions, are binding on the Muslims.
Third Example: On the occasion of the battle of Uhud, some Qur’ânic verses were revealed to make the Muslims recall the events of the battle of Badr: How Allâh helped them and how He promised to send the angels to their aid, and how He actually did so. These verses are as under:
Allâh has certainly helped you at Badr while you were weak. So, fear Allâh so that you may be grateful. When you (O Prophet) were saying to the believers, ‘Shall it not suffice you that your Lord shall aid you with three thousand angels being sent down? Why not? If you observe patience and fear Allâh and they come to you in this their heat, your Lord shall aid you with five thousand angels having distinct marks?’ And Allâh did not make it but a good news for you so that your hearts might be satisfied. And there is no help except from Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (3:123-126)
The emphasized sentence of these verses attributes the good news of the aid of angels to Allâh Almighty, meaning thereby that the good news of this aid was given by Allâh Himself. But this good news given at the time of Badr is nowhere available in the Holy Qur’ân. In other words, there is no verse in the Holy Book revealed during the battle of Badr which implies the good news of the aid of the angels. What is quoted above is only a reference of that news, made at the time of a later battle, and it is expressly mentioned in this verse that the good news was given by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam). Still, the news is attributed to Allâh.
Thus, it is another example where the words of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) are held to be the words of Allâh. There is no reason for this expression other than that the words of the Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) were inspired by a special revelation, not contained in the Holy Qur’ân, and this is what is called the “unrecited revelation.”
Fourth example: Referring to the battle of Uhud at another occasion, the Holy Qur’ân says:
And when Allâh promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (8:7)
One of the two parties referred to in this verse was the commercial caravan of Abu Sufyan, coming from Syria, and the other group was the army of the Makkan disbelievers, led by Abu Jahl. The above verse says that Allâh had promised the believers that they would triumph over one of these two groups. The Muslims, in fact, won the battle against the latter, namely, the army of Abu Jahl.
The point worth consideration here is that the promise of Allâh to give the Muslims victory against any of the two groups is not there in the Holy Qur’ân. This promise was conveyed to the Muslims by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) without any reference to any verse of the Holy Qur’ân. Still, the verse quoted above atttibutes the promise to Allâh and not to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam).
The only conclusion derivable from this is that the promise was received by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) through an “unrecited revelation.” Hence it is attributed to Allâh. Guided by this revelation, the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) conveyed the promise to his companions.
Thus, it is another proof of the existence of a kind of revelation which is not contained in the Holy Qur’ân and is called the “unrecited revelation.”
Fifth Example: Once the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) told a secret to one of his wives. She disclosed the secret to some other person. When the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) came to know that the secret has been disclosed by his wife, he sought an explanation from her. She asked him as to who told him about the disclosure. The Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) replied that he was informed about it by Allâh Almighty.
This event has been mentioned by the Holy Qur’ân in the following words:
And when the Prophet told one of his wives about a matter secretly; then, when she told about it, and Allâh has disclosed it to him, he made known some part of it, and turned aside from some part; then, when he told her about it, she said, “Who told you this?” He said, “I was told by the All-Knowing, the All-Aware.” (66: 3)
The emphasized sentence of this verse is quite clear in that Allâh told the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) about the disclosure of the secret. This is also not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Qur’ân. So, it is another concrete example where the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) received some revelation from Allâh other than the one contained in the Holy Qur’ân. This is exactly the “unrecited revelation.”
Sixth Example: During the siege of Banu Nadir, the famous tribe of the Jews in Madinah, some Muslims had cut down date-trees from around the fort to compel the enemy to surrender. After the war was over, some Jews objected to the cutting trees. The Holy Qur’ân has answered the objection in the following words:
Whatever date-trees you cut down, or left standing upon their roots, that was by the leave of Allâh. (59:5)
It has been very directly mentioned in this verse that the Muslims cut down the trees with a leave from Allâh. But nobody can point out to any verse in the Holy Qur’ân to the effect that the cutting of trees during the war is allowed. The question is: from where did the Muslims acquire this leave from Allâh? There is no answer to this question except that the leave of Allâh had been conveyed to them by the Holy Prophet () and he received it through “unrecited revelation.”
Seventh Example: It is well known that the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) had adopted Sayyidina Zaid bin Haarithah (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) as his son. He married Zainab, daughter of Jahsh. After some time their relations began to be strained and, ultimately, he divorced her. In the days of Jahiliyyah an adopted son was treated as a real son in all respects and for all purposes. The Holy Qur’ân, on the other hand, declared that the adopted sons cannot be treated as the real ones.
To eradicate the Jahili concept of the adopted son, Allâh Almighty ordered the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) that he should marry Zainab (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) after her having been divorced by his adopted son, Zaid ibn Haarithah (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam). The Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) was a bit reluctant in the beginning, for, according to the prevalent custom, it was treated a shameful act to marry the divorced wife of one’s adopted son. But when the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) received a concrete order from Allâh, he married her.
This event has been mentioned by the Holy Qur’ân in the following words:
When you were saying to the one whom Allâh had blessed and whom you had blessed, (i.e. Zaid, before he divorced Zainab), “Keep to you your wife and fear Allâh,” and you were hiding in your heart what Allâh was to disclose and you were fearing people, and Allâh has more right to be feared by you. So, when Zaid finished with her, We made you marry her, so that there may remain no restriction on the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons when they have finished with them. And the order of Allâh had to be done. (33:37)
Here the words, “you were hiding in your heart what Allâh was to disclose,” refer to the fact that Allâh had informed the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) that he will marry Zainab (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) after she is divorced by Zaid (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam). The Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) knew that, ultimately, she is going to be divorced by Zaid, but, out of shame, he could not disclose it and when Zaid consulted him in the matter, he advised him to keep to his wife and not to divorce her.
From this it follows that the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) had been foretold by Allâh that Zainab was going to be divorced by her husband. But this information is not contained in the Holy Qur’ân. It was given to him through an unrecited revelation.
The second sentence is more significant in the context, that is, “We made you marry her.” Here Allâh Almighty declares that the marriage between the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) and Sayyidah Zainab (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) was contracted by an order of Allâh.This order is nowhere mentioned in the Holy Qur’ân. Still, the Holy Qur’ân affirms it. This is another confirmation of an order conveyed to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) through an “unrecited revelation.”
Eighth Example: The Holy Qur’ân has repeatedly ordered the Muslims to establish salaah (the prayer) and to be steadfast in it. In the following verse, after repeating the same order, the Holy Qur’ân gives a special concession to the Muslims that, in the state of war, when they fear an attack from their enemy, they can perform the prayer in whatever way they can, either riding on horses or camels or walking on their feet. But after the danger of the enemy is over, they are ordered to perform the prayer in its normal way. This principle has been laid down in the following words:
Take due care of all the prayers and the middle prayer; and stand before Allâh in total devotion. But if you are in fear, then (pray) on foot or riding, but when you are in peace, then recite the name of Allâh in the way He taught you. (2:238-239)
A number of points are worth consideration in these verses:
Firstly, the verse assumes that there are more than one prayers obligatory on the Muslims, but the exact number of the prayers has not been given, neither in this verse nor at any other place in the Holy Qur’ân. That the number of obligatory prayers is five is only mentioned by the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam). The Holy Qur’ân, by saying “Take due care of all the prayers,” confirms what the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) prescribed for the Muslims.
Secondly, the verse lays special emphasis on the “Middle Prayer,” but does not define it. The definition has been left to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam).
Thirdly, the most important sentence in relation to our subject is, “when you are in peace, then recite the name of Allâh in the way He taught you.” It goes without saying that the “recitation of the name of Allâh” means here “to perform the prayer” as the context does not permit any other meaning.
Now, the Holy Qur’ân directs the Muslims that in the state of peace they should perform the prayer in its normal way which has been taught to them by Allâh. It is an express indication that the normal way of performing prayers has been taught to the Muslims by Allâh Himself. But no such way has ever been mentioned in the Holy Qur’ân. There is no verse in the Holy Book mentioning the detailed way of performing prayer. It is only the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) who educated the Muslims as to how they are to perform it. But the Holy Qur’ân holds the teaching of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) to be the teaching of Allâh.
It means that Allâh has taught the way of prayer to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) through some “unrecited revelation” not contained in the Holy Qur’ân, and the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) taught it to the Muslims. Thus, the Muslims have been taught by Allâh through the teaching of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam). However, the teaching of the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) is described in the holy verse as the teaching of Allâh, because it was based on the “unrecited revelation.”
Ninth Example: Certain hypocrites had not accompanied the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) in the expedition of Hudaibiyah. After that, when the Muslims resolved to proceed to the battle of Khayber, the Holy Prophet () declared that only the participants of Hudaibiyah shall be entitled to accompany him on this journey. The hypocrites who did not go to Hudaibiyah were now interested in their participation in the battle of Khaybar because according to their anticipation the Muslims were expected to gain from there sizeable spoils, which the hypocrites wanted to share. But the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam), inspite of their requests, did not allow them to participate in the battle.
This event has been referred to in the following verse of the Holy Qur’ân:
Those remaining behind will say, when you set forth after spoils to acquire them, “Let us follow you,”- desiring to change the words of Allâh. Say, “You shall not follow us; so Allâh has said earlier.” (48:15)
The emphasized words indicate that there was a previous word of Allâh barring the participation of the hypocrites in the battle of Khaybar, and confining the battle to the participants of Hudaibiyah. But no such word exists anywhere in the Holy Qur’ân. It was only a prophetic order. Still, Allâh Almighty describes it as His Own word. The reason is obvious. The Prophetic order was based on the order of Allâh received by him through some “unrecited revelation” which is not found in the Holy Qur’ân. Yet, it was a revelation, as certain as any word of Allâh.
Tenth Example: In the early days of his Prophethood, when the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) received the verses of the Holy Qur’ân revealed to him, he used to recite the same simultaneously, lest he should forget them. It was a strenuous exercise for him, because he felt it was much too difficult to listen to the revelation, to understand it correctly, and to learn it by heart, all at the same time. Allâh Almighty relieved him from this burden when He revealed the following verses of the Holy Qur’ân:
Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (75:16-19)
In the last sentence, Allâh Almighty has promised the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) to explain the verses of the Holy Qur’ân to him. It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Qur’ân itself. It is not the Holy Qur’ân. It is its explanation or its exegesis. Therefore, it should necessarily be in some other form, distinct from the words of the Holy Book. And this is exactly what is meant by the “unrecited revelation.” But the two kinds of revelation, though different in their form, are both revealed to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam); both are from Allâh; and both are to be believed and obeyed by the Muslims.
Eleventh Example: The Holy Qur’ân says to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam):
And Allâh has revealed upon you the Book and the wisdom, and has taught you what you did not know and the grace of Allâh upon you has been great. (4:113)
In this verse the revelation of the Wisdom has been mentioned as separate from the revelation of the Book. It indicates that the wisdom referred to here is something additional to the Holy Qur’ân, and it has also been revealed to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) by Allâh Almighty.
Then the Holy Qur’ân proceeds to say: “And (Allâh) has taught you what you did not know.” It means that Allâh has not only revealed the Book, but has also revealed the Wisdom, and also taught the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) what he did not know before. This teaching includes all kinds of directions given by Him to His prophet, either through the Holy Book or through some “unrecited revelation” in the light of which the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) performed his functions as a messenger of Allâh.
Twelfth Example: The Holy Qur’ân has summarised the various kinds of revelation in the following words:
And it is not possible for a human being that Allâh should speak to him, except by way of revelation or from behind a curtain, or that He should send a messenger and he reveals by His leave what He wills. (42:51)
Now, out of these three modes, the revelation of the Holy Qur’ân was carried out through the third one, namely, through an angel who is identified in the verse by the word, “messenger.” It is clearly settled by some other verses:
Say: Whoever be an enemy to Jibreel (Gabriel, the angel)—it is he who has brought it (the Qur’ân) down upon your heart by the permission of Allâh. (2:97)
And truly it (the Qur’ân) is the revelation of the Lord of the worlds, brought down by the Faithful Spirit upon your heart, that you may be one of the warners, in a clear Arabic tongue. (26:192-195)
These verses are quite explicit on the point that the Holy Qur’ân has been revealed through an angel, named in the first verse as Jibreel, and in the second one as the Faithful Spirit; but the verse (42:51) quoted above describes that there are two more ways of revelation. These two modes have also been used in the case of the Holy Prophet (). It means that the revelation sent down to the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) was not confined to the Holy Qur’ân, but there were other revelations, too. These revelations are termed as “unrecited revelation.”
These are sixteen verses, which affirm not only the existence of the “unrecited revelation” but also its reliability and authenticity, and its binding nature. It is not intended here to produce all the material available in the Holy Qur’ân to establish this kind of revelation. The purpose was to give some examples only, which has, perhaps, been substantially served. But before proceeding further, it will be useful to recollect and summarize the conclusions that stand proved in the light of the Holy Qur’ân as discussed above:
(1) The function of the Holy Prophet () like other prophets is not only to convey the divine Book. He is also to teach the Book, to teach the wisdom and to make people pure by training them practically.
(2) The “Obedience of the Holy Prophet” () is as necessary as the obedience of Allâh; because the latter has always been mentioned in the Holy Qur’ân combined with the former.
(3) The obedience of the Holy Prophet () in practical is the obedience of Allâh; and the latter cannot be carried out except through the former.
(4) The Muslims are bound not only to obey the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam), but they are also under an obligation to follow him.
(5) Whatever the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) says or does in his capacity of a Messenger is always based on, or confirmed by, a revelation from Allâh.
(6) This revelation is sometimes contained in the Holy Qur’ân and called the recited revelation, and sometimes it is sent down in addition to the Holy Qur’ân, and the same is termed as “unrecited revelation.”
(Source: Muhammed Taqi Usmani chapter 1 “two kinds of revelation” http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/asunnah1.htm)
In conclusion, it’s clear from all these verses mentioned, that Prophet Muhammed (p) was more than just a delivery man. If anyone has an open mind, he/she will see that the Hadith are part of the religion of Islam. Mufti Taqi Usmani proved that Allah sent down to the Prophet (p) a second revelation (Wahee Ghair Matlu) that was not recorded in the Quran.
Discover The Truth 
Assalamu alaikum. What a good, straight forward and extremely easy to follow and to understand,in plain English attempt to clarify the issue. May Allah increase our knowledge and keep us all on the right path. Remenber me in your duah. Assalamu alaikum from brother Mohammad Maudarbocus
Walaykum Salaam wa rahama tullahi wa baraka tuhu my brother. Ameen Akhee. I will remember you in my Dua
In Shaa Allah.
“3. Prophet (pbuh) was sent to explain the Quran
(A) With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.(Quran 16:44)
(B) And We have not sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (O Muhammad SAW), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe. (Quran 16:64)
From the above verses it is clear cut like day and night that prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is here to explain the Quran to Mankind.”
sigh…
there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah” 5:15
“Alif Lam Ra Those are the Signs of the Clear Book.” 12:1
“in the clear Arabic tongue.” 26:195
“By the clear Book. Surely We revealed it on a blessed night surely We are ever warning– Therein is made distinct every affair, wise. ” 44:2-44:4
“[Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?” And those to whom We [previously] gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters. ” 6:114
75:18 So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
75:19 Then it is for Us to clarify it.
NOT ONLY THAT, but if you tell me that the Qur’an says Muhammad was ordered to explain the Qur’an, you create even more contradiction! Why? BECAUSE GOD SAYS HE (GOD) EXPLAINS IT. NOT MUHAMMAD.
75:18 So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
75:19 Then it is for Us to clarify it.
(B) Every Quranist (Hadith-Rejecter) says the Quran in itself is a Tafseer and explains everything. If that is the case all the person has to do is read the Quran and he will understand the message. Why does the prophet need to interpret, explain for people to understand through the Quran, if the Quran in itself is explained already?
He doesn’t, you are very severely astray. You have clearly deserted the Qur’an because you have possibly contradicted at least one verse from the Qur’an in each of the points you have made. I hope people read my response carefully and try to refute each point if they can, which of course they cannot because I have been using the verses of the Qur’an so if you want to argue you can argue with God…
Hi Mathew
Mathew Wrote:////Since people receive God’s message through the messengers, we are commanded to obey the messengers.
“Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled. Nor does he speak from personal desire. It is a divine inspiration. He has been taught by One mighty in power. ”
Try to refute each point made.
Since the messenger’s duty is to deliver the message to the people, he does not speak of his own desire, but he passes on the word of God. Thus obeying God and obeying the messenger are the same thing. When you read through the Qur’an you will notice that other messengers also proclaimed to the people to obey them./////
Response: You said Obeying God and Obey Allah is the same. I asked you to show me 1 verse in the entire Quran where it says OBEYING the Messenger means obeying Allah.
Mathew wrote: ////What? Did you forget everything surrounding what you underlined? Please read from 59:1 onwards. It is clear that this verse is referring to the spoils of war.////
Response: The thing YOU don’t understand is that the prophet HAD AUTHORITY to do THINGS, COMMANDS that are not in the QURAN.
////(C) But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction. (Quran 4:65)
Trying to make me believe that this verse is telling us that Muhammad’s judgment was his own would cause at least 5 contradictions throughout the Qur’an!////
Contradiction Huh? The verse is VERY CLEAR, it is the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) who is JUDGE in Allah disputes after the Book of Allah.
////“WHOEVER DOES NOT JUDGE WITH WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN, THEN THESE ARE THE INGRATES.*
5:44
“WHOEVER DOES NOT JUDGE BY WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN, THEN THESE ARE THE WICKED.*
5:45
5:47 Let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. WHOEVER DOES NOT JUDGE BY WHAT GOD HAS SENT DOWN, THEN THESE ARE THE VILE ONES.
5:48 , 5:50//////
I don’t see how that REFUTES my Argument in the MAIN Article. You didn’t DARE to even refute the points that Mufti Taqi made regarding the prophet RECEIVING 2 revelations 1 is the Quran and the other is the Hadith.
One Example that will refute your ARGUMENT is this that the prophet DID INDEED receive a SECOND revelation:
It is made lawful for you, in the nights of fasts, to have sex with your women. They are a cover for you, and you are a cover for them. Allâh knew that you were betraying yourselves; so, He relented towards you and pardoned you. So, now you can have sexual intimacy with them, and seek what Allâh has destined for you, and eat and drink until the white thread of the dawn becomes distinct from the black thread; then complete the fasts up to the night. (2:187)
The following points with respect to this verse are worth consideration:
(a) The verse confirms that having sex during the nights of Ramadaan was not lawful before.
(b) The people who had sex during the nights of Ramadaan before this verse was revealed are admonished by describing their act as “betraying themselves.”
(c) The words, “so He relented towards you and pardoned you,” indicate that their sexual act was a sin, because “relenting” and “pardoning” occur only after a person commits a sin.
(d) The words “so now you can have sexual intimacy with them” denote that it is only now that the sexual act during the nights of Ramadaan has been made lawful.
All these points confirm the fact that the earlier prohibition of having sexual intercourse during the nights of Ramadaan was validly made by a competent authority, and the Muslims were bound to abide by it.
But there is no verse in the Holy Qur’ân to convey this prohibition.. It was enforced only by the Holy Prophet (). Still, the Holy Qur’ân not only confirms it, but also treats it as if it were in its own words. It is due to the fact that the Holy Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) did not enforce this prohibition by his own will, it was rather based on a revelation of Allâh Almighty which is not contained in the Holy Qur’ân.
Looked at from this angle, this verse on the one hand proves that there is a revelation which does not form part of the Holy Qur’ân, and on the other hand it reaffirms the status of the Holy Prophet () as a law-giver, and that his injunctions, both orders and prohibitions, are binding on the Muslims.
Mathew Feldman can you give me the verse in the Quran where this PROHIBITION was in PLACE??
////6:114 “Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?”
4:105 We have revealed to you the book with truth that you may judge between the people according to what God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.
4:106 Seek forgiveness from God; God is Forgiver, Compassionate. 10:35////
You know one thing Hadith-rejecters do is take verses literally. When Allah says in 6:114 that he has EXPLAINED everything, do we really have to take that LITERALLY? The answer will be NO!! If that is the case then we should take everything LITERALL, so when he says he has HANDS in the QURAn. Do we as Muslims have to take that LITERALLY?? When he says “everything is explained” where does it tell you about the prayer using the Quran alone??? Since the Quran is FULLY DETAILED AND EXPLAINED, then where is the PUNISHMENT for a rapist if he commits such an evil crime? Bring me the verses of the Quran.
/////D) O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad, pbuh), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. (Quran 4:59)
In the above verses (quran 4:59) Allah says “if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah AND HIS Messenger”<.
*****"As you see this is enough proof that prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was
more than just a delivery-man."*****
"for you is only to deliver" 13:40
"If they have peacefully surrendered then they are guided; but if they turn away, then you are only to deliver. God is watcher over the servants." 3:20
According to GOD, the messenger is only to deliver………… "Only". Wow. That puts you in a place where you can't fit "hearsay narrations" ANYWHERE in there./////
You see you need to be CONSISTENT the verse does NOT talk about just delivering the QURAN and that is it. If that was the case Allah could of send an ANGEL to do that. The verse above you mentioned TALKS ABOUT, IT IS NOT UP TO HIM to GUIDE people. So long as HE conveys the MESSAGE that is all Allah wants. The main POINT is IT IS ALLAH WHO GUIDES PEOPLE NOT the prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
Another thing, you just lied about ALLAH. Allah says in numerous that the prophet is here to EXPLAIN, TEACH the Quran. Please do read THIS ARTICLE AGAIN 🙂
Kaleef wrote: ////show me 1 verse in the entire Quran where it says OBEYING the Messenger means obeying Allah.////
Response:
4:80 He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah
Kaleef wrote: ////the prophet HAD AUTHORITY to do THINGS, COMMANDS that are not in the QURAN.////
Response: In 59:7, the Prophet had been given authority by Allah under specific circumstances, only while he was alive. So it is true within the limits of this verse that he was to be obeyed. But in which verse is the Prophet given authority to bring universal laws in addition to those mentioned in the Quran?
That would be 59:7 – ‘And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.’
Kaleef wrote: ////it is the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) who is JUDGE in Allah disputes after the Book of Allah.////
Response: It is incorrect to suggest that the Prophet brought laws not found in the Quran. The specific judgements he made in specific disputes are not laws to be obeyed in addition to the Quran. Whatever judgements or decisions he made in disputes were based on the Quran.
6:114 [Say], “Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?”
The Prophet WAS a judge in disputes WHEN HE WAS ALIVE. Obviously he is not a judge anymore because he is dead. If a person today is a judge, his decision would also need to be based on the Quran.
Allah SWT says in the Holy Qur’an 2: 154: “And do not say of those who are slain in Allah’s way: ‘ They are dead.’ Nay (they are) alive, but you perceive (it) not.” – Surly the Prophets all of them hold a higher ranking than those who have been slain in the way of Allah. Now, if that is the case they i.e. the Prophets have more right to be alive. Thus rendering your comment that the Prophet PBUH is dead as an incorrect statement.
I do endorse what you have written as our prophet was a ideal man on earth to follow him.
response to Mathew Feldman
////E) Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (Quran 7:157)
"If you have read clearly in the above verses Allah has made it clear that the prophet Muhammed (pbuh) has Authority by Allah to PROHIBIT and ALLOW"
66:1 O you prophet, why do you prohibit what God has made lawful for you, seeking to please your wives? God is Forgiver, Compassionate.
The prophet was probably shamed publicly for prohibiting what God made lawful. He was forced to preach what he had done. ONCE AGAIN you take things out of context.//////
You DONT even know what you are TALKING about, it is the PROPHET that prohibits, how does he do IT. Well THROUGH the second revelation that I SHOWED earlier. Check this Article the end section by Br. Mufti Taqi Usmani
https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/05/07/proof-prophet-was-sent-to-teach-to-explain-the-quran/
////“He allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad.”
This is another beautiful verse where Allah states clearly that the messenger had Authority to prohibit and allow. The verse can’t get any clearer, you can read this in any translation even in Arabic, and it says the same thing. The verse says “for HE (Muhammed pbuh) commands what is Halal and Haram”. The verse does not say for he commands what is Halal and Haram from the Quran. This verse alone destroys whole of the Hadith-rejecters ideology.
"The judgment is for none but God.
He ordered that none be served but He.
That is the true system, but most of the people do not know."
"Say: "God is fully aware how long they remained, to Him is the unseen of heavens and Earth, He sees and hears. They do not have besides Him any ally,
nor does He share in His judgment with anyone.""
"When Our Clear Signs are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet Us say, ´Bring a Qur´an other than this one or change it.´ Say: ´It is not for me to change it of my own accord.
I follow nothing except what is revealed to me.
I fear, were I to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Dreadful Day.´"
"So, what Allah allows, the Messenger allows.
And what Allah forbids, the Messenger forbids.
That is why, one who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah.
—–"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)
So, the only reason that "Obeying the Messenger" is the same as "Obeying Allah", is that the Messenger conveys The Message only./////
You said He doesn’t SHARE his JUDGEMENT with anyone. OK I never said he DID. But what I am making clear is that the prophet received 2 kinds of revelations.
Example Allah says in the following verse:
Take due care of all the prayers and the middle prayer; and stand before Allâh in total devotion. But if you are in fear, then (pray) on foot or riding, but when you are in peace, then recite the name of Allâh in the way He taught you. (2:238-239)
Allah says that in the above verse to take care of the MIDDLE PRAYER. He says further if YOU FEAR then pray on foot and when you are in safety again THEN PRAY THE WAY ALLAH has TAUGHT.
Question:
There is NO VERSE before it, that TEACH HOW TO PRAY (salaat) how did Allah TEACH THEM if there is NO VERSES BEFORE it that TEACH THE PRAYER. Well there is only one answer, that the prophet received a second revelation (wahee Ghair matlu).
Further response to Mathew Feldman
/////“3. Prophet (pbuh) was sent to explain the Quran
(A) With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.(Quran 16:44)
(B) And We have not sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (O Muhammad SAW), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe. (Quran 16:64)
From the above verses it is clear cut like day and night that prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is here to explain the Quran to Mankind.”
sigh…
there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah” 5:15
“Alif Lam Ra Those are the Signs of the Clear Book.” 12:1
“in the clear Arabic tongue.” 26:195
“By the clear Book. Surely We revealed it on a blessed night surely We are ever warning– Therein is made distinct every affair, wise. ” 44:2-44:4////
Sigh 🙂 I see YOU don’t even know what the verses are talking about. You brought verses such as 5:15 and 12:1.
I will respond to 12:1.
Alif LAM RA: Allah knows best what He means by these letters. Those, verses, are the verses of the Book (Quran), that makes plain, the one that manifests truth distinguishing it from what is falsehood.
Since the Quran is EXPLAINED according to you. Can you explain to me what is the Background of Surah Qamar verse 1? I hope you respond. 😀
Oh and you brought Surah 6:114 that it IS FULLY DETAILED and EXPLAINS everything.
Please do answer this simple question:
“Indeed, the number of months with Allaah is twelve (lunar) months in the register of Allaah (from) the day He created the heavens and the earth; of these, FOUR ARE SACRED. That is the correct religion (i.e. way), so do not wrong yourselves during them. (At-Tawbah: 36).
Can you give me the names for them 4 sacred months using Quranic Verses?
Assalamu ãlaikum. al-hamdu lillah, well demonstrated 🙂
But, I have a question regarding the Hadith literature. The Sunni & Shi’i Hadith literature is slightly different. Even within the Sunni tradition there are many differents opinion on the chain or, collection of Hadiths.
So as a result, people who tries to follow the Sunnah by judging the Hadith literature ends up following the opinions of scholar regarding the authority of any Hadith.
My point is how can we have definite action on the Hadith literature, as it’s commanded in Quran clearly to do, when we have so many differences amongst our scholars.
Walaykum Salaam Shohan
Thank for your comment. Can you give me an example the opinions regarding “chain or collection of Hadiths”?
Ok. For example I’ve read it from a book available in our language, it quotes some of the scholars like, Mulla Ali Qari says,
“Where there’s disput about any Hadith I didnt mention that in my book al Maudhu’at al Kabir. Because there’s such possibility that the Hadith is Maudhu’ in one chain, but Sahih in another chain. In fact, it depends on the view of Muhadditheen. Otherwise there’s no way to be obvious about chain. Because on the basis of a chain one Hadith is being graded Saheeh, it’s not impossible that the same Hadith is Da’if or Maudhu’ on the basis of logic. On the contrary, a Hadith which is graded as Maudhu’ it’s possible that the Hadith is Saheeh Marfu’ in fact. Although the case of Mutawatir Hadith is different. Because that’s narrated based on obvious knowledge, so there’s no room for doubt in that.” Al Asrarul Marfu’ah; al Maudhu’atul Kabir, Al Masnu’ fi Ma’rifatil Hadithil Maudhu’
There’s another quotation by Sheikh Nasir ud Deen Albani,
“In short, if the chain is Da’if a Hadith can Maudhu’, also can be Saheeh. Because there’s possibility that by the support of more than one chain a the Da’if Riwayah might graded as Hassan or even Saheeh.” Silsilatul Ahadith ad Da’fatu wal Maudhu’at
So it seems that except Mutawatir Hadiths the Hadiths are based on what the chain is. If it’s weak then it’s weak. And the chains are verified by our Scholars.
So the question is if all the Hadiths are taken by the opinions of Scholars, how can a lay man (like me) can understand the narrations as definite knowledge?
Also, it’s not possible for normal persons to just go through the vast tradition of Hadith literature. So what should we do?
Salaamu Alaikum my beloved brother Shohan thank you for your comment.
I am not Scholar, but what I have read from Scholarly books. I will try giving you the best answer I can In Shaa Allah. I will try make it as simple as possible. Note I am using the names Ali and Uthman as an example.
If a Hadith is reported and in the chain of the narrators one person has “weak memory” or known to be a “liar” due to that, the Hadith grade will go down by Scholar Uthman.
Now if the same Hadith is reported by a different scholar and grades it Saheeh, it is because the first scholar (Uthman) didn’t have the additional info. The second scholar (Ali) might have another different Hadith that is Saheeh but through a different chain of narrators and Scholar Ali would make that Daeef Hadith, the grade up to Saheeh.
The reason Scholars have different views is because they all rely on evidence they have. Now if a scholar doesn’t have an additional info, then he will judge it by what evidence they have at first place. Lastly they DO NOT take it just on their opinions, they grade it by what evidence they have.
A recommended books you should read if you can In Shaa Allah:
(A) A Textbook of Hadith Studies by Mohammad Hashim Kamali.
(B) Hadith Muhammad’s Legacy in the Medieval and Modern world by Jonathan A.C. Brown.
Walaikumussalam wa Rahmatullah. Jazak Allahu Khairan 🙂
Mashallah, subhanallah
Such a academic word
May Allah swt reward you for you hard effort ameen
Ameen wa’Iyyakum my brother
Kaleef loves receiving praise for spreading falsehood
The argument for accepting hadith is destroyed by one verse.
45:6 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what hadith after Allah and His verses will they believe?
In fact when we look at the commentry alluding to this verse, Ibn Kathir writes that: ‘(Then in what statement after this will they believe) meaning, if they do not believe in this Qur’an, then what talk will they believe in’ – If a person rejects the Qur’an then what does it matter concerning the hadith.
Tafsir Jalalayn makes the point, that if they reject the Qur’an those people of Makkah then ‘What will they then believe in’
In your attempt to render the hadith obselete the usage of this verse does not pertain to your given premise.
45:6 says // if they believe in the Quran, then in what hadith will they believe in?
It does NOT say // if they do NOT believe in the Quran, then in what hadith will they believe in?
Regarding ibn Kathir and Jalalayn
3:78 And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, “This is from Allah ,” but it is not from Allah. And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.
Kaleef K. Karim wrote:////Here is a challenge for these people, show me one verse in the entire Quran where Allah says “obey the messenger”, means to obey the Quran.////
Before you present such a challenge, why don’t you first show one verse in the entire Quran where Allah says “obey the messenger” means to obey the hadith
Hi Daniel, the burden of proof is actually upon the one that made the initial claim in the first place saying that ‘Obeying the Messenger means to obey the Quran’ is the claim of the Hadith rejector, therefore it is their responsibility, if that is then shifted to us then the appeal to ignorance fallacy has been deployed.
Therefore, we look forward to your response to the challenge.
The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was revealed the Quran. Nobody even the Prophet (pbuh) himself knew what was to be inspired in him until it was inspired in him. The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was not given the Quran in a book form. He communicated it with verbal means speaking the Quran to the people as they listened to it, believers and non believers alike. When the people heard the Prophet (pbuh) speaking the Quran; they had only two options; to either do as the Prophet (pbuh) said (obey) or to not do as he said (disobey). For example, if the Prophet (pbuh) was revealed Ayat (17:32) he’s say, “And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse. Indeed, it is ever an immorality and is evil as a way.”
So anybody that commits adultery are disobeying the Messenger. That is how you Obey Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh), it has nothing to do with anything outside the context of the Quran as an instruction.
Kaleef K. Karim write: ////It is evident that this explanation is something separate from the Holy Qur’ân itself. It is not the Holy Qur’ân. It is its explanation or its exegesis.////
No, it’s not evident. 75:16-19 tells us that ALLAH explains the Quran. Where is ALLAH’s explanation?
The Prophet explains the Quran (16:44) by simply reciting it, since it is Allah that explains it (75:16-19).
Brother, you are going down the wrong path by believing in hadith. Please take heed.
As-salaam-u-alaikum brother. I don’t think anyone’s goin down the wrong path by believing or following hadith. I say that because we have proof from the Quran itself (and numerous splendid examples provided by the admin above) that whatever our Prophet (عليه الصلاة و السلام) said (or did or acted upon or ordered other than Quran – hadith/sunnah) is never from Himself, but (a result of) revelation from Allah.
(Surah An-Najm (53) – Aayahs 3 and 4)
والسلام
>show me one verse in the entire Quran where Allah says “obey the messenger”, means to obey the Quran.
Because there is no verse where Allah says “obey the messenger” means obey the hadith, it can only mean obey the Quran.
64:12 tells us that if we do not obey the messenger, his only duty is to deliver the Quran. So we can only “obey the messenger” by obeying the Quran.
“And obey Allah and obey the Messenger; but if you turn away – then upon Our Messenger is only [the duty of] clear notification.” 64:12
64:12 also tells us that obeying Allah and obeying the messenger is one things, not two. This is supported by 4:80.
“He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah” 4:80
I hope this helps.
Hi Kaleef,
You said “TO MAKE CLEAR OR TO EXPLAIN, have the same meanings.” You also said “make clear” means “declare”. Does “explain” and “declare” have the same meaning?
You say that BaYaNa means “explain”. Please refer to 5:15.
“O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear (BaYaNa) to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much.”
It is obvious from 5:15 that BaYaNa means to “make clear” or “declare”, NOT “explain”, because the verse talks about people that CONCEALED Allah’s message. What is the opposite of concealing a message? Showing/announcing/declaring the message, or explaining it?
Hi Raha Touma
I think you must be mistaken, I made it clear that the Arabic word ‘Bayana’ means explain, make clear. Make clear and explain means the same thing. There is no difference.
Plus, I recommend you read Edward Lane’s Lexicon I provided in this article for further info on the Arabic word Bayana.
Lastly, you quoted 5:15, I dont see how that passage is connected to the verse (16:44) I quoted. Quran 16:44 is evident that the Prophet is the one who explains the Quran to humans, so that they get good understanding of the message that was sent down to them.
Edward Lane’s Lexicon discusses the word BaYaNa on five pages. You have shown only a small portion. Is this a fair representation of the five pages?
Book 1, page 286, column 2 says that BaYaNa can mean “make manifest”.
“we make manifest to thee in the Scripture everything that thou and thy people require [to know] respecting matters of religion.”
Does “make manifest” and “explain” mean the same thing?
The reason for showing 5:15 is because it also uses BaYaNa. It is evident in 5:15 that BaYaNa does not mean “explain”.
In 16:44, why does BaYaNa mean “explain” and not “make manifest”?
In 5:15 and 12:1, the Quran is described as a clear book. Does a clear book need explaining?
If in 16:44 BaYaNa means “explain”, then does this not contradict 5:15 and 12:1 ?
Raha Touma
///Edward Lane’s Lexicon discusses the word BaYaNa on five pages. You have shown only a small portion. Is this a fair representation of the five pages?///
Well I presented what was important from Edward Lane, if you think I represented him wrong or I have twisted, bring your evidence and try correct me, that is if you can.
////Book 1, page 286, column 2 says that BaYaNa can mean “make manifest”.
“we make manifest to thee in the Scripture everything that thou and thy people require [to know] respecting matters of religion.”
Does “make manifest” and “explain” mean the same thing?
The reason for showing 5:15 is because it also uses BaYaNa. It is evident in 5:15 that BaYaNa does not mean “explain”./////
Yes, the English word ‘manifest’ also means making something clear/explain. Here is a link for you:
3. to make clear or evident to the eye or the understanding; show plainly: He manifested his approval with a hearty laugh.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/manifest
///In 16:44, why does BaYaNa mean “explain” and not “make manifest”?///
As I have shown that Manifest and explain mean the same. Let’s now turn to non-Muslim Translators of the Quran on the passage 16:44
1. Arthur John Arberry with the clear signs, and the Psalms; and We have sent down to thee the Remembrance that thou mayest make clear to mankind what was sent down to them; and so haply they will reflect.
2. Edward Henry Palmer with manifest signs and with scriptures; and we have sent down the Reminder to thee too, that thou mayest explain to men what has been sent down to them, and haply they may reflect.
3. John Medows Rodwell With proofs of their mission and Scriptures: and to thee have we sent down this Book of Monition that thou mayest make clear to men what hath been sent down to them, and that they may ponder it.
Besides Edward lane Lexicon, the three above non-Muslim translators of the Quran also disagree with you that the passage means something else as you stated. But as you have read, they all agree that the passage (16:44) means explain.
////In 5:15 and 12:1, the Quran is described as a clear book. Does a clear book need explaining?
If in 16:44 BaYaNa means “explain”, then does this not contradict 5:15 and 12:1 ?////
There is no contradiction between the two passages you have mentioned and 16:44. Let’s take for example 5:15
O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.
First part of the verse says that the Messenger (Muhammad [p]) is the one who makes clear to people of the Book in what they used to conceal of their scripture i.e., Torah and the Gospels. Meaning that Prophet Muhammad (p) is the one who EXPLAINS to Jews and Christians in what they concealed.
The second part Allah says that the Book is ‘clear’. Remember if everything was explained in detail as you assume, then why does Allah say in Surah 3:164 that Prophet Muhammad (p) is the one who teaches the Quran?
Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. [Quran 3:164]
Why does Allah need the Prophet to teach the Quran, if it is already explained I detail as you assume?
The whole reason the Prophet was sent to mankind, is that so humans can understand the message of the Quran clearly. The messenger’s role was not a mail man as asserted by you. The role of the Prophet was more than just a delivery man.
Furthermore, since Allah taught prophet Muhammed (pbuh) what the verses of the Quran mean, what makes you people THINK that you don’t need a teacher to teach you? If all the prophet (pbuh) had to do to understand the Quran is to read the verses. Why then does Allah say in this passage 53:5 HE is the one that teaches the prophet what verses of the Quran mean?
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed. He was taught by one Mighty in Power” [Quran53:3-5]
Question for you Raha Touma
If All the Prophet needs to do is read the Quran and he will understand what the Quran means. Why does Muhammad (p) need to be taught what the verses of the Quran mean, if it is already explained in detail?
As for 12:1 it just says the Quran shows Cleary, distinguishes, makes plain, the one that manifests truth (distinguishing it) from what is falsehood.
The Quran and the sayings of the Prophet (p) go hand in hand.
Why was my last comment removed? Did it defeat your argument that Muhammad was sent to explain the Quran?
Hi Raha Touma
Your last comment was NOT removed. Sometimes comments take longer to approved as I am busy at home with family. I am not on the Internet all the time. Any ways your comment has been approved and I have replied to your points Salaam.
Hi Ilimtalibi
// ..explain.. explain.. explain..
The Quran explains all issues in as much detail as it needs to. The Quran is a clear book (12:1). A clear book does not need explaining because it’s clear. Allah does not run out of words (18:109). So we do not need Muhammad to explain the Quran.
//2:129, 2:151, 3:164, 62:2
Muhammad “taught” the Quran by reciting it. “Teaching” means to impart knowledge (96:5). It does not mean a person needs to explain the imparted knowledge. The Quran is the imparted knowledge that Muhammad “taught”.
//Please explain, why Allah s.w.a. himself ” opened ” the doors to different meanings/interpretations?
Where does the Quran say that Allah opened the doors to different meanings/interpretations?
//Another point to explain is, why through a messenger if the messenger has no function at all?
Muhammad’s only function was to deliver (42:48).
//There is not a single ayah in the Qoraan that says to only follow the Qoraan.
//Dare to prove where it says that we should only follow the Qoraan?
See 17:46 which says “And if you mention your Lord in the QURAN ALONE (l-qurani wahdahu), they run away turning their backs in aversion.” Allah says that the Quran is guidance (7:52). Where does it say that hadith is guidance? The fact that the Quran does not say follow hadith is sufficient proof to follow the Quran alone. The Quran is a clear book so if Allah wanted us to follow hadith, the Quran would have clearly said so. But it doesn’t.
// .. making something clear is explaining .. 16:44, 16:64, 14:4
This is not true for a message that is clear. If a message is unclear then it needs explaining. So an unclear message is made clear by explaining it. This does not apply to the Quran because it is a clear book. A clear book does not need explaining, so the only way to make a clear book clear is by revealing it, which Muhammad did by reciting. It is important to note that where the Quran says “clear book” (12:1), the root word used (BaYaNa) is the same as in 16:44, 16:64, 14:4. The root word can mean to make manifest. Making something manifest means to reveal or show.
//7:157
12:40 and 6:57 say that command only belong to Allah. 18:26 says Allah does not share his commands with anyone. 7:157 is referring to the People of the Book, who do not believe in the Quran. The halaal and haraam mentioned in 7:157 is all contained in the Quran. You will note that the verse says “So they who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was SENT DOWN with him – it is those who will be the successful.” What was “sent down”? The answer is in 18:1. The Quran has two qualities. It is a book and it is wisdom (10:1). Allah has sent down wisdom which is in the Quran.
//..you don’t have any evidence the Qoraan has been protected.
See 15:9
//49:15, 48:9, 48:13
We cannot obey the Quran without obeying the messenger who delivered it. Obeying the Quran and obeying the messenger of the Quran means the same thing (see 4:80).
//4:136
Hadith rejectors do believe in the messenger and the Quran. The messenger delivered the Quran.
//4:61
Through which person was the Quran revealed to us? You cannot separate the Quran from the messenger. You cannot accept the Quran without also accepting the messenger that delivered it to us.
//5:99, 3:20, 5:92
These verses say that the Prophet’s ONLY job is to convey the message.
//33:36
Are you suggesting that Allah cannot make decisions on his own about a specific matter? Are you suggesting that Allah and the Prophet made joint decisions together on a matter? Allah is the All-Powerful and does not need Muhammad’s help to make decisions. We cannot know Allah’s decision without Muhammad telling us what the decision is. And obeying Allah and obeying the messenger of Allah is the same thing.
//About 45:6 … what else would one believe in, if not in Allah’s word? What else is there left to believe if not the truth? … what are they going to believe if not me and my words?
Are you adding things to 45:6 that don’t exist?
//75:16-19 .. If it would mean explaining everything with the ayaat in the book, that would mean that they’d have to be in the same soerah in a logical order.
This is an assumption. 10:36
Peace.
2:129, 2:151, 3:164, 62:2
If you still deny that prophet Muhammad a.s.w. did not have authority the explain the Qoran, explain 3:7
Please explain, why Allah s.w.a. himself ” opened ” the doors to different meanings/interpretations?
Now, please explain to me how to pray basing it only on ayaat. What the prayer is and how to establish it, every step.
Now, please explain to me how to fast. What breaks it and what not, when to begin and when to end it.
Now, please explain to me how and how much to give zakaah, who has to give it when?
Now, please explain to me what to do when a thief is caught stealing? Without putting any interpretation to it, taking the ayah ” literally ” as your prefer to do with other ayaat to support your own arguments.
Now, please explain to me how and when to do ghusl?
Now, please explain to me what being djunub means?
Now, please explain to me where and how to establish the friday prayers?
Now, please explain to me what Alif-Laam-Meem means, and what Noen means, and what Taa-haa means, and what Alif-Laam-Meem-Saad-3ayn means.
Now, please explain what ” beating your wife ” means in the Qoraan?
Now, please explain how to shorten our prayers, according to what?
Now, please explain to me how to take the prophet as an example? Without any interpretation, taking the ayah ” literally ” !!
Now, please explain to me which way of reading the Qoraan is the right one, as there are ways to recite it differently with different letters, which actually do change the meaning.
Now, please explain to me why Allah s.w.a. some people to be left behind at times of war so they could learn and pass on the deen, if it was all so clear?
Now, please explain to me why Allah s.w.a. says in the Qoraan that the Qoraan will be recited, but then the verse after he says that it will be explained too. If reciting and explaining are the same things, if the Qoraan is self explanatory then the only thing that would’ve needed to be done was reciting it, isn’t it? Now, the Qoraan is the recited part, then what is the explanation part?
Now please explain to me, indeed ” make manifest ” and ” explaining ” are two different words with two different meanings you claim, bayyana can mean both(okay), now, dare to explain me what makes according to what evidence/source that the other meaning is the right one to use and the other one wrong? They both fit in there, what now? Why would your opinion the right one?
And I can go on and on..
Now, please, explain all those if the Qoraan is clear in the way you imply it.
Please explain why Allah s.w.a. used words that have many different meanings, but all fitting in context? Why’d He do that, open door for different interpretations? What would make one interpretation better than the other? Yourself, nothing else. Except if it is the understanding of the as7aab who followed the prophets understanding. The Qoraan is clear indeed, but not the way you qoraniyyoon imply it. If that would be the case, then there would be no need for any interpretation, it wouldn’t even be possible, because a fully detailed book wouldn’t accept explaining nor interpretating. Explaining something is making it clear, making something clear is explaining. They both mean the same. The prophet does that.
Another point to explain is, why through a messenger if the messenger has no function at all? There is not a single ayah in the Qoraan that says to only follow the Qoraan.
Ofcourse there are many other questions to be asked, like claiming ” A has corrupted the deen ”, ” The Qoraan comes from source A ”, thus making the conclusion ” So the Qoraan is unchanged, preserved ”. Which doesn’t make any sense at all and is hypocrisy, but it is what qoraniyyoon do, taking the source of your belief from an ummah that you slander with producing lies about the deen, changing it, adding things, thus, you don’t have any evidence the Qoraan has been protected.
Ofcourse another question would be, how do you know the translations you use are translated correctly? You are just reading a book of someone else, that has written what it means according to his own interpretation. But ofcourse, another question to be asked is, the arabic language, the alphabet, the arabic literature is all made/formed and written down by scholars. Where does the Qoraan explain the arabic language? Wouldn’t that need to be done too, according to your fully explained claim, because now it’s humen who form the meaning of the Qoraan, and not Qoraan itself. It’s humen written language rules and meanings that do it.
There are many, many ayaat in the Qoraan that prove that the prophet’s, peace be upon him had the duty to recite and explain it to them, teach it to them with the hikmah he got from Allah s.w.a., teaching that hikmah to them also.
16:44, 16:64, where Allah s.w.a. tells the prophet to explain it to them, thus making it clear. Some translators prefer to use the word making it clear, other do prefer to use explain.
14:4, what is it for the messenger to make CLEAR if only reciting/passing on the message by only reciting the ayaat was enough?
2:129, Allah s.w.a. separates reciting what has being revealed with teaching the book, he uses the word ” yatluu ” here which means ” to recite/read ”, and then he says ” YU3ALLIMUHUM ALKITAAB” now please, are you going to say that teaching means the same as ” delivering/reciting ” the message? And then he says and the wisdom, separating teaching wisdom from the book, and then purify them. So Allah s.w.a. states 4 things, reciting them (delivering), teaching them the book (explaining), the wisdom (his sunnah/wisdom) and purifying them.
And in 2:151, 3:164 and 62:2 he states this too.
7:157-158 Allah s.w.a. says that the prophet commands them what is good and forbids them what is bad, and also, and makes good things lawful and bad things unlawful. The word used is ” yu7illu ” and ” yu7arrimu ”, meaning something 7alaal or 7araam. Now, if the 7alaal and 7araam are all written in the Qoraan and only Allah s.w.a. can do that, then what is the 7alaal and 7araam told in this ayaat? If you are going to claim that the prophet makes them clear what is 7alaal and 7araam in the Qoraan, prohibits them from what is forbidden in the Qoraan and allows what is allowed, then what is the point of this ayah? Isn’t it already obvious that what is written in the Qoraan al 7alaal en 7araam should be passed on, and that it is decided so by Allah s.w.a.? No where in this ayah does it say that Allah s.w.a. is talking about the 7alaal and 7araam in the Qoraan, and no where does it say it is limited with the Qoraan. Also it proves that the messenger’s only duty was not ” delivering ” the message, but also, again, explaining it, teaching it. Otherwise, passing ayaat where it is written what is 7alaal and 7araam would be enough. Why give the prophet such a role, if reading the Qoraan would be sufficient.
In ayaat like 5:99, 3:20, 5:92 etc, no where is stated that conveying the message is ” limited ” to ” reciting ” it. I can tell you to study or to get a job, if you don’t want, it’s up to you, I can only tell you, but if you do want to, then I’ll help you study, yes. But I can’t force you to it, can’t force you to learn it, accept it, read it. I simply can give you this naseehah. Those ayaat have nothing to do with what a7adeeth rejectors imply. The prophet simply is not responsible for their unbelief, he conveys the message, if they accept he teaches it to them, if they don’t, its up to them.
49:15, 48:9, 48:13, to claim believing in the messenger, obeying him means obeying the Qoraan and that the messenger has nothing to say is nothing but word-playing. Allah s.w.a. would then say Obey me! Because, it is common sense that accepting the message from the messenger would be obeying him. What is the need saying obey me and my messenger? And the claim of a7adeeth rejectors is destroyed by this ayah, 4:136, Allah s.w.a. there clearly separates believing in him and his messenger and the book. Believing in Allah, accepting the Islaam, makes it only logical that you indeed believe in the messenger and the Qoraan too, if you accept the message from that messenger that is sent. Allah mentions believing in the prophet and the book apart, the only logical way to understand this that the prophet is as important as the book.
4:61 Allah s.w.a. mentions that was has been sent down and the messenger apart, if obeying Allah and the messenger would mean the same (obeying the Qoraan), then why not only mention come to what Allah has revealed? This ayah proves that again, comming to the prophet (obeying) is not the same as comming to the book the qoraniyyoon put.
33:36, Allah s.w.a. is talking about Him and the Prophet deciding a matter, so, are you going to say, the Prophet deciding = Allah deciding, so the prophet didn’t decide in the end Allah did? No. There is no way for that because Allah s.w.a. clearly states that His and also His messengers decision is binding for the people. This way he also clearly says Obey ME and OBEY MY messenger too.
About 45:6, Everyone that has some brains and knows some poetry and arabic balaagah would understand that Allah s.w.a. tells us here the next, ” This is the message of Allah in truth we read to you. So what other word are they going to believe in (if not this)? ” In the meaning, Those are the true words of Allah s.w.a, what else would one believe in, if not in Allah’s word? What else is there left to believe if not the truth? You all really don’t understand and speak a word arabic, do you? David Ramos is clearly lying about the ayah, adding words that don’t exist in the original arabic verse to it, claiming it says ” if they believe in the Quran, then in what hadith will they believe in? ”, now I’d like one translation that states it this way. This is a big lie, something the qoraniyyoon do a lot, add things to the ayaat that don’t exist in the book, the original ayah goes like this, ” tilka (those are) ayaatullah (the verses of allah) natluu 3alayka (we read/recite them to you) bil haqq (in/with truth). fa bi ayyi (then in what) hadeesin (words/talk/speech and many other meanings) ba3ada Allah (after Allah) wa ayaatihi (and his verses) yu’minoen ((will) they believe). Dare to explain me where it says IF THEY BELIEVE IN THE QORAAN? It is clear what Allah s.w.a. states, this is my word in truth, what are they going to believe if not me and my words? This is the meaning it has. Dare to prove where it says that we should only follow the Qoraan?
Oh and lastly about Allah’s explanation, 75:16-19, how you guys love to play with the ayaat, give it them your own color. To claim that the prophet’s explaining is simply reciting it (which is proven false with many other ayaat), and that Allah s.w.a. is the one that explains is with other ayaat, then the next question will arise, I’ll try to explain it carefully;
Now, firstly Allah s.w.a. says its upon them to recite (pass on the ayaat) the Qoraan, and that the prophet should follow their recitation. And then it is up to Him (Allah) to clarify/explain the ayaat.
Now, how does it make sense that Allah s.w.a. separates their reciting and explaining? Reciting it means passing on the verse, now, if the verse is passed it, what is there left to explain? Weren’t the verses all clear, fully detailed? Didn’t reciting it mean explaining? If its explaining means explaining one ayah with another in the Qoraan, then that would have to mean the revelation came down non-stop in one go, because, for example, if Allah s.w.a. said in a soerah for the first time aqeemussaalaah, the prophet and the people wouldn’t know what this means and how to do it, this would mean after Allah s.w.a. recited the verse to the prophet though djibreel, he’d immediately have to reveal the verses that explain what salaah is. Now did this happen? No, because none of the ayaat about salaah are in the same soerah one after other, they are all in different places, different soerat, revealed at different times, and none clearly explains what salaah is. This alone proves that taking it the ayah the qoraniyyoon way is false. If it would mean explaining everything with the ayaat in the book, that would mean that they’d have to be in the same soerah in a logical order. And not everywhere cut down and continued somewhere else.
To say reciting is explaining the Qoraan is false. If the Qoraan is all self-explaining, then there’d no need for Allah s.w.a. to say that after they recite it to the prophet they also will explain it, because according to your claim, the Qoraan is self-explaining. Then reciting is to the prophet would be explaining it.
What you say is just like, I will tell you something which explains it self, and afterward I will explain it to you.
I guess this is enough, this could go on forever.
Peace.
Sorry for my typo’s, I cannot edit my original post so I’ll have to do it here;
The word used is ” yu7illu ” and ” yu7arrimu ”, meaning MAKING** something 7alaal or 7araam. It’s talking about a fi3il, a deed/verb. ** Now, if the 7alaal and 7araam are all written in the Qoraan and only Allah s.w.a. can do that, then what is the 7alaal and 7araam told in this ayaat? If you are going to claim that the prophet makes them clear what is 7alaal and 7araam in the Qoraan, prohibits them from what is forbidden in the Qoraan and allows what is allowed, then what is the point of this ayah? Then also the used words here wouldn’t make sense, then the fi3il yu7illu or yu7arrimu wouldn’t have come, because it’s something that is done by an action, just like eating, talking, driving, it is something you DO, an action. Thus, making/declaring something 7alaal and 7araam.
Hey Michael Depew,
None of my questions were answered at all. Let’s play it your way then.
// ..explain.. explain.. explain..
The Quran explains all issues in as much detail as it needs to. The Quran is a clear book (12:1). A clear book does not need explaining because it’s clear. Allah does not run out of words (18:109). So we do not need Muhammad to explain the Quran.
Where does it imply in 12:1 that the Qoran has explained everything as it needs to? Where does it say that the meaning of ” A clear book ” is as you claim it is? That is only an ” assumption ”, it’s your understanding of it. You are completely taking 18:109 out of context, that ayah isn’t talking about Qoran being complete and missing nothing. If it would be, then we’d have to take that ayah’s meaning as it is and the Qoran would’ve been a book that wouldn’t fit on the earth. That ayah is talking about the 3ilm of Allah s.w.a. and not the Qoraan. According to your belief Allah s.w.a. has ran out of words ( astagfirullah) as he couldn’t even properly explain the prayer and many other things. According to your belief he couldnt even properly explain himself, using different words as reciting and teaching and explaining, totally different meanings, as the same meaning, though they are different from roots, oh yeah, your book is indeed fully explained, and then he forgot to explain them in the book. So you do not need Muhammad a.s.w. to understand the Qoran? Haha. Yeah, he is the one who got the message, but you dont need him to understand, you can do better than him? Oh and ofcourse, you need translators and arabic scholars to understand the book, but the PROPHET that got and understood the message THE BEST you dont? Right.
Where does it in the Qoran say ” teaching ” means reciting? Where does the Qoran talk about the arabic language and its meanings? This is just an ” assumption ”, just what you prefer to make of it. You cannot prove from the Qoran that teaching means the same as reciting. Where does it say it does not mean that a person needs to explain? No, the Qoran isn’t the imparted knowledge, if it was, then 1. There wouldn’t be a need for a messenger to deliver the message 2. It wouldn’t have any meaning to deliver the message in 23 years delivering the message in 1 piece would be enough 3. Many questions I asked you and I can keep on asking even more questions and you cannot answer any of them in a proper way with the Qoran. Answer the ones I asked first.
So, where does that ayat say that delivering the message is limited with ” reciting ” it ;)? It doesn’t, does it? You are obviously taking that ayat of it’s original meaning, where Allah s.w.a. is talking about that he cannot force people to believe, he only can deliver them the message of the God, call them to the truth, if they accept they are welcome, if not, he can only deliver them the message, can he do something else?. No where does this say he was only limited with reciting it does it? This answer does not answer my question, WHY THROUGH A MESSENGER? Seriously.. throwing all common sense aside only to prove your false point right, subhanAllah.
About 17:46 I have answered that, you are lying about the ayah, changing it’s original meaning. That ayah is talking about mentioning ONLY ONE god in Qoran ALONE. It is about mentioning ONE GOD ALONE in the Qoran. It is not mentioning you should follow the QORAN ONLY. Allahu Akbar, hard to read and understand it normally is it. Go learn arabic.. Lol, sorry but I can only laugh how you dare to change even translations, giving them your own meaning. Anyone that knows a little bit arabic, it’s basics would know that dhamir in whahdahu is talking about Allah being one, not only following Qoran, haha.
Yeah, the Qoran is a guidance, where does it limit the guidance to being only Qoran? No where. The Qoran came with the prophet, so obviously the prophet is guidance so, so are is words. Where does it say you are guidance then? Where does it say to follow you? You are taking your own understanding as the only truth, which is not the case, where does the Qoran say you are right? Lol. Lets play it your way. The fact that the Qoran does not limit the guidance to only Qoran is sufficient proof to follow the Prophet, as the Qoran came from him to us. No where does that ayah limit the message and guidance to the Qoran only. The Qoran is indeed a clear book, a clear book which distinguishes haqq from baatil. No where does it say a clear book means that everything is explained, that there is no need for a prophet. It’s the opposite, we have to obey the prophet, take him as our example. If Allah wanted us to follow the Qoran he would’ve CLEARLY SAID SO wouldn’t he, but no where does he say dont listen to the prophet, teaching means reciting, so dont obey him, follow this book only dont follow some words that will be known as hadith later, no where does he say follow ONLY QORAN, ONLY QORAN isn’t mentioned anywhere in the Qoraan.
// .. making something clear is explaining .. 16:44, 16:64, 14:4
What philosophy. Where does it state it this way in the Qoran? Oh wait, it doesn’t. No where does it state this book is all explained everything is in here this is enough there is no need for explanation. If it does, show me where? Without putting YOUR OWN interpretation of the ayah. Where does it say in Qoran that the meanings in 14:4 and 16:64 are the same, where does it explain the connection between those ayaat? Where does it say that ” yubayyina ” means to manifest? Where does that ayat limit it to ONLY revealing it? It doesn’t, thats what you make of it. And where does 16:64 imply that ” tubayyina ” means to manifest? It doesnt, thats what you make of it. So using those 2 to ” proof ” that it means to manifest there is not valid, because there is no proof that those words are used there in the meaning of ONLY manifest. can you follow it? It is you who is giving those words that meaning, and you do that in 1 ayah, and say, in this ayah it means to manifest too because in the other one it did also, though it was you who gave that meaning to it, it was you who limited it, though the ayah doesnt come near the meaning oyu imply it, it doesnt limit anything. But then the question still stands, where does it say that a clear book means it doesnt need explaining, and that it means it’s been explained all in the book, which OBVIOUSLY it isn’t, as there are too many factors that can’t be undestood without historical knowledge. And many question I asked, which cannot be answered from the book too. You say ” CAN MEAN ”, so what is your proof that it DOES mean that meaning here?
12:40, are you seriously bringing this ayah as evidence for your false claim? Allah s.w.a. is there talking about idol worshippers, telling he didn’t order them to worship anything or anyone besides him. Only he can command; and he commanded to only worship him. — Its nothing about only Qoraan, no rasoel, that prophet cannot command, lol. Allah s.w.a. is talking about idol worshippers. No where does this ayah limit the command to only Allah, if Allah s.w.a. has giving the authority to the prophet to command, then that does not mean that he isn’t the only one that is command, its non-sense to call is ” shirk ” that prophet had the authority to set rules, use common sense. If your boss gives you power to do something, that doesn’t mean that you are equal to him.
6:57 is talking about the unbelievers saying we dont believe so where is your lord, where is his punishment? Where the ayah says, that which you ask impatiently for is not in my power, only Allah can decide that he holds the power to that. Where does this limit commanding to Allah, where does this limit obeying only to him, that the messenger didnt have any function? lol
Lol, taking them so out of context just to prove your own false points. But when it comes to ayah like 7:157 you start talking about ” is referring to the people of the book who do not believe in teh qoraan ” . Oh so those ayaat you use to prove your lies refer to those that believe in hadieth etc? Lol. So, why this hypocrisy of taking ayaat that talk against your claim in context, but ayah that could even if a little bit hint/prove your claim out of context. Then the context isnt important? What hypocrisy, what lies, subhanAllah.
Dont word play with me. yu7arrim and yu7illu are pointed to the prophet, saying that he DOES THAT, it is a verb, an action taken by the prophet. Something that he does. But if it was all contained in the qoran, then why does Allah s.w.a use those words? Yeah, where does it claim that the light is limited with the Qoraan only? If it did, which it doesnt, but if it did, IF that light TELLS you to obey the messenger to follow him that he teaches the book explains it teaches the deen, then following that would be following that SAME LIGHT too becaues that LIGHT tells you to do that, so no where does it limit it with only Qoraan, no where does it limit the prophets authority. Same goes for 18:1, it doesn’t limit the message with the Qoran only. No, the wisdom isn’t limited with the Qoran only, I have explained that previously with many ayaat. There is no proof that it is Qoraan only. It is what you make of it, as no where in the Qoraan does Allah s.w.a. put it like that, now here does he limit the message to the Qoran.
//..you don’t have any evidence the Qoraan has been protected.
See 15:9
Haha, mister, please. So, A says A is right so A is right? Oh hey, a7adeeth say they are right, so why arent they right then?
Firstly, it doesnt say ” Qoraan ” in the ayah. It says ” dhikr ”. No where does it limit ” dhikr ” to only the Qoraan. There is no proof ” dhikr ” means only Qoraan, there is no proof that this ayah is in connection with other ayaat. And also, what is your proof that this ayah wasn’t put in the Qoran later on? How do you know its protected? How do you know the arabic language was protected also, the meanings etc.
//49:15, 48:9, 48:13
We cannot obey the Quran without obeying the messenger who delivered it. Obeying the Quran and obeying the messenger of the Quran means the same thing (see 4:80).
Again word playing. You are taking 4:80 as in, obeying messenger is obeying allah, and obeying allah is listening only Qoran, though does ayah doesnt limit obeying to Qoraan only, and no where in the Qoran does it. This is the way you take, word playing. Allah s.w.a. couldve easily said obeying the messenger is obeying the message he delivered, but it doesnt, that it your own claim.
We say, obeying the prophet is obeying Allah, so obeying everything he orders you, commands you, accepting everything about the deen he tells you, explains you, teaches you, is indeed obeying Allah, because Allah told us to obey him, to follow him, accept his ruling, so if we do that we have obeyed Allah.
See?
//4:136 Hadith rejectors do believe in the messenger and the Quran. The messenger delivered the Quran.
No you don’t. You don’t accept anything that has come from him. You believe without proof a book could be protected 1400 years, but his words couldnt. Though all those things come from the same source, same mouthes. Saying those mouths corrupted everything, the deen, but then you accept from that same source you say has fabricated the belief the book of your belief. Dare to prove the book hasnt changed, that they havent changed, that they havent add anything to it? You cannot. If you say they are liars, then its nonsense to accept something from them, thus, the Qoraan. You dont know if he really did, you only assume, as you totally throw away any historical facts about him.
//4:61 Through which person was the Quran revealed to us? You cannot separate the Quran from the messenger. You cannot accept the Quran without also accepting the messenger that delivered it to us.
So, accept the messenger then, go? You dont even know if a messenger really existed. Taking the ayah again in your own way. According to your understanding this ayah isn’t of function anymore, because i cannot accept the messenger, you cannot also, no one could after he died.
We say, this ayah is talking about that they should listen to the prophet, obeying him also. Allah s.w.a. separates it obviously, come to what has been revealed (qoran) AND the messenger, now what? revealing qoran = messenger, so messenger = revealing qoraan = allah etc? trinity belief again? You gona come with your magical a = a = a =a so a = a? It will not work here will it?
//5:99, 3:20, 5:92 These verses say that the Prophet’s ONLY job is to convey the message.
No, it doesn’t say that. This ayah is talking about unbelievers, saying that the prophet only can deliver them the message, and not more, he cannot force them. It isnt even talking about warning them is only limited to conveying the message, as it doesnt even talk about conveying message = only reciting it. Lol. 3:20, WHY DOES IT NOT SAY ABOUT BELIEVERS THAT YOU ONLY CAN NOTIFY BELIEVERS TOO? BUT ONLY ABOUT THOSE WHO THAT TURN AWAY, THAT HE CAN ONLY NOTIFY THEM? I thought he NOTIFIED EVERYONE, believer or not believer, because it was the only thing he could do. 5:92, same, where does it limit anything? No where. It doesnt even come near. It’s the opposite, obey allah and messenger. If they don’t, its up to them, no one can force them to believe. But so, where does it say only qoraan no hadeeth only obey allah etc? Its again what you prefer to make of it, coz you cannot accept that the belief you are on could be wrong, so you can only be narrow minded about it. adding meanings to the ayaat which arent there.
//33:36 Are you suggesting that Allah cannot make decisions on his own about a specific matter? Are you suggesting that Allah and the Prophet made joint decisions together on a matter? Allah is the All-Powerful and does not need Muhammad’s help to make decisions. We cannot know Allah’s decision without Muhammad telling us what the decision is. And obeying Allah and obeying the messenger of Allah is the same thing.
Lol, it was so obvious you’d take it that way. No, I am not suggesting that, it is you who takes it that way, so that you could find a way to strengthen your claim, but it doesnt. That messenger can decide too, doesn’t mean Allah can’t decide or that he hasnt the power, or are you suggesting that Allah cannot decide to give his messenger authority and knowledge and wisdom to rule and decide on matters? So, dare to tell me ABOUT WHICH decision made in THE QORAAN this ayah is talking about? You cannot, because this ayah isn’t talking about decisions in the Qoraan, it isnt talking about decisions in the deen. No one is suggesting Allah and the Prophet made joinst decisions, you are just hoping I would imply that so you could be right, but you arent. Allah simply gave his messenger authority to decide on matters in the society he lives about the deed. Simply talking about that we should obey him and his messenger. So word-playing.. if it would mean the same, why didnt Allah s.w.a only say When Allah has decided? As if it isn’t obvious that listening to the messenger, to the message that comes from him, is listening to Allah, his decisions. dont word play me man, seriously.. so tiring you qoraniyyoon. Taking the ayaat out of context when you think it supports your claim, though it doesnt even come near it. Take the ayah in context will ya, i thought we had to do that ;)?
Oh and whiel talking about this ayah, dare to explain 33:37, how did the Prophet know what would happen, without him being told :O How could he try to hide something that wasn’t being published by Allah s.w.a., in other words, teh Qoran? Where is it told in the qoraan?
//Are you adding things to 45:6 that don’t exist?
Hahaha, you are adding the whole time, then it is allowed. So when I take teh ayah in its context of meaning, I am adding? SubhanAllah.. so ignorant. Anyone that knows poetry and has some brains and common sense knows this verse means that. Seriously I am laughing, because I cannot believe that you are keeping on your point, not accepting your non-sense. Go learn some arabic and balaaghah. Go to an unbeliever that knows good arabic ask what the ayah means. Go read any kuffaar explanations, any translation, ask any translator. So blinded you are. So little knowledge you have, which is the reason making you think you are something big. You eye is blinded by prophet and ahadeeth hatred, that you see things in the Qoraan that dont exist, trying to make from every ayah that ahadeth are fabricated and that we should only follow Qoran.
//75:16-19 .. If it would mean explaining everything with the ayaat in the book, that would mean that they’d have to be in the same soerah in a logical order.
This is an assumption. 10:36
So when you talk it is a fact, and when I do, according to the understanding of the sahaba and historical facts, it is an assumption? You are talking about things that arent written in the ayaat the whole time, adding your own meanings to the ayaat, then it’s not assumptions, but when I do that, I assume, I add things? This hypocrisy. Unbelievable. Prove me it is an assumption? REFUTE my point, dont come and say ” 10:36 ” and think you are done, because you arent, and you’ll never be.
So, when are you going to come with hard facts from the Qoraan without any word play, without any assumption like ” can mean ” and adding your own interpretations to it etc.
Dont word play with me, you wont win, believe me. Come with hard facts without adding your own things to it. Which you obviously can’t, none of my questions have been answered at all, seriously NONE, you just repeated the same things others said, though none of my points were answered and refuted, because you know your self too, you cannot answer them.
Hey Ilimtalibi,
You have raised the most important point ! !
“So, when are you going to come with hard facts from the Qoraan without any word play, without any assumption like ” can mean ” and adding your own interpretations to it etc.“
Hadeeth Acceptors say Muslims must accept hadeeth. So it is for them to come with hard, clear proof in the Qoraan for accepting hadeeth WITHOUT any word play, without any assumption and without adding interpretation. Nobody is able to do this. So there is no justification to say Muslims must accept hadeeth. Even if there is no proof in the Qoraan to follow the Qoraan alone or to reject hadeeth, this does not justify saying that Muslims must accept hadeeth.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
Actually the answer is very simple to this,
Allah s.w.a. says that we have to obey the messenger, that we have to listen to him. What more proof do you need more than this? I am not word playing and also not adding any interpretation to it am I? Allah says it, we do it, it’s simple as that. How we can obey him? The same way his companions did. Historical facts and the information what has been passed on by the companions of the prophet, the Deen understanding they’ve teached their children and newcomers is the proof for that. That is the justification for it. They have passed on the Qoraan with their understanding of the Deen what they learned from the prophet, one cannot say the prophet didn’t understand the deen or that he understood it wrong, that he did it wrong. And to throw away every single information what has been passed on by the companions except is Qoraan is hypocrisy, cannot be taken serious at all.
Muslims must accept a7adeeth because the companions of the prophet and their children have accepted it. You cannot show me a single sect in the first 3 generations that have refuted a7adeeth, it’s the opposite, a7adeeth has always played an important role in their understanding of the deen. Even the lost sects didn’t refute a7adeeth.
The Qoraan is very clear on this, Obey the Messenger, he teaches, he explains, he purifies.
To say that even if there is no proof in the Qoraan to follow the Qoraan alone or to reject hadeeth, and that this does not justify accepting a7adeeth, we can turn the tables and say, then this does also not justify not accepting a7adeeth. Now which are we going to take?
The Qoraan is clear on this, so are historical records and what has been passed on by the companions and their followers. Yes indeed, there has been a lot of fabricating about the deen, which is the REASON oesoel a-7adeeth came to existance. Though, a7adeeth rejectors often use a7adeeth fabricating back then as an excuse to refute a7adeeth, though it’s the opposite, giving it a little thought will make it clear that existance of a7adeeth fabrication back then is a proof that a7adeeth played a big role in the deen back then also and that people misused this, if it didn’t, if a7adeeth wouldn’t have existed back then, then there would have been no place for fabricating them and there’d be no reason for people to accept them.
To say nobody is able to proof it is just talking without knowledge about it. Historical facts, records cannot be simply denied because it doesn’t support your own interpretation of the Qoraan. That is why we say, the way of the prophet, the sunnah of the prophet. Otherwise it will be ” in my opinion ”, ” in your opinion ”, like it is now, and that will be any deen except Allah’s deen. Because Allah send his deen to us through the Prophet, thats why we have to hold on to the prophet, and the way to do that is like I said, through the as7aab, through the tabe3een. If you do not accept them, then you cannot accept the Qoraan also, because it comes from them.
The people back then have not only passed on a7adeeth, no, our understanding of the deen isn’t simply based on a7adeeth, they’ve also recorded the islamic life/belief in their time. The way people lived it, and none of you can show me a single example of a very different belief in that time from ahl-alsunnah that is completely the opposite throwing everything away. An example is Imam Maalik, he used the way people of madeenah lived the Islaam, practiced it as proof too. Because madeenah is where the Prophet lived and died, it was where the most of the as7aab lived, which passed the deen on to their children, which if, obviously proof too.
To simply say they all were liars, fabricators, cheaters etc, that is just a tale, non-sense which can’t be taken serious at all.
One must accept that the Qoraan is open to many, many interpretations.
One must accept that the Qoraan is open to many, many interpretations. To say that Allah s.w.a. says to hold to his rope all together and not to divide (thus saying that the madhaahib divide the deen so we should not accept them, which is a baseless argument that hasn’t been given much thought) and at the same time to say that everyone should read the book and try to understand and give it their own meaning, own interpretation, that anyone can talk about it is not realistic also, because that exactly is dividing the deen, the ummah, that is every single soul having his own deen, which is EXACTLY the reason a PROPHET has been sent and why we have to follow the understanding of the prophet, which has been passed on by his companions.
The question is, is there a deen of Allah, if yes, what is that deen? And is it ONE? One cannot say the Qoraan is the deen, no, the Qoraan is the book, it is a part of it, which can be understood in different ways. For Qoraan to contain the absolute deen it would have to explain everything in detail without any questions and interpretations assumptions etc leaving, which is NOT the case OBVIOUSLY. So, then, if there is a deen of Allah and if that deen is ONE, then what is that deen? You all claim it is a clear book because the book says so, not because the book is so, no, only just because you think it says so so it has to be clear (in the way that nothing else is needed it explains all because it says its clear and that the prophet isnt needed to understand it) but you never gave it a thought that even the most simple things like prayer hasn’t been clearly explained in it. None of you can find a solid answer on the many questions I asked, none of you can. One makes a website to prove his point of Qoran only, explaining why Qoran only, and then making dozens of articles about prayer, hey, why make a website? I thought the Qoraan was clear? What are all those articles about deen? On one side saying Qoraan is enough, other side you are writing things about the deen of Allah? And then other comes and makes a video of 2 hours long, thinking he is proving that salaah exists in the Qoraan, EXPLAINING others that it is in the Qoran and EXPLAINING according TO HIMSELF the right way of the prayer. Wow.. The prophet has to shut up, cannot explain, cannot teach anything, can only recite, but a no-one can show the audacity to do that? He is saying the prophet can only recite, but he can do more than the prophet did? And so I have to watch a video of 2 hours to understand the prayer? I thought it was all explained CLEARLY in the book, is that why a video of 2 hour has to be watched? And who knows HOW LONG it took to make that video, maybe months, in search for ways to prove that salaah exists in the Qoraan, months of work just to understand the salaah? How come a fully clear detailed book is so hard to understand? Wow what a easy deen.. What a clear book. This alone proves the understanding of your ” clear book ” is wrong. And I thought everyone could understand? And then comes another man like edip yuksel, la3natullahi 3alayh, making his own videos about the islaam, how we should pray, how we should fast, writing books, launching website etc, I thought the Qoraan was enough? And then you all read books and forums about this, asking others opinions, hey, I thought the book was clear, what happened to it clearness? I thought everything was explained to fully detail in the Qoraan, that it was enough? And then comes a kaafir named rashad khalifa la3natullahi 3alayh, working YEARS on a code called 19, and he is the only one that can understand it? And to understand the Qoraan years of work is needed? And then writing tons of books and giving tons of lectures, so one can understand the Qoraan right, hey dude, I thought it was enough? So I have to read YOUR book to understand it right? What is all this work that’s been done to tell others that only the book is enough? If the book is enough, what is all that you are doing? And I can go on.. and go on..
Do not forget that Allah s.w.a. didn’t only send a book with his prophets, he also sent HIS DEEN! The book is a part of that deen, so is the PROPHET, they both form the deen. A deen can exist without a book, but a book cannot exist without a deen. A book isn’t necesarily required for a deen, no, there have been many prophets who haven’t been given a book, but only a deen which they had to tell their people. A deen can be passed on without a book, but a book cannot be passed on without a deen. You cannot pas a book without the right understanding of it, especially a book like Qoraan which’s verses were revealed based on things that happened in the time of the Prophet, which is open to many ways. Just like in the time of prophet, you think they were like you peeps asking for only Qoraan ayah? No, in some occasions the prophet simply said to some, pray, eat halaal, be nice to others, accept allah accept the life after this life and you’ll be in the Djannah. You think he wrote ayah for everyone everyone took ayaat with them etc?
It is impossible, it doesn’t make sense to deny the ocean of information that comes from the people that lived in the time of the prophet, it is too big too much to just deny them, ignore them. There are some facts you cannot go around. The right Deen, is the deen that the companions learned from the prophet and passed on their children/followers, which they recorded in books. The a7adeeth, but also what they did, how they learned it, how others lived it.
Peace.
Also another thing to note, to ask someone that accepts both Qoraan and Sunnah to bring only proof from the Qoraan is a faulty question. because we don’t say everything has to be in the Qoraan. The question can only be directed to those that say the Qoraan is sufficient, and they cannot give any clear solid answers to any of the questions, only thing they do is add their own interpretation, own thoughts on it, but to add interpretation to something that is supposed to be crystal clear in everything, that is weird and conflicting. We indeed ” interpretate ” things, because we don’t say the book is all crystal clear (It is crystal clear, crystal clear in distinguishing al-7aqq from baatil!! Not in the way that explanation of the messenger is unnecessary), we dont say nothing else is needed, but we don’t go and interpretate things according to our own thoughts, wishes, desires, capacity etc, no, we take the understanding of the companions of the prophet and their followers, which they learned, which they saw from the prophet directly. My question was about the questions I asked, explain them with the Qoraan, to come with hard facts from the Qoraan that don’t leave any empty space for question marks. For me, I don’t need to do that from the Qoraan only, because I believe the prophet explained those things.
But yes, if it’s about the prophet’s authority in the Deen, then we can proof that from the Qoraan, which has been done in the articles on this blog FROM the point of view of people that have got their deen from the COMPANIONS of the prophet, and I also, have pointed out that we indeed have to obey the messenger, that the book alone isn’t sufficient, and that it wasn’t even sent to be sufficient, that the Prophet had an important role to play too.
So yeah, the question isn’t valid.
Another thing to note, is that you Qoraniyyoon prefer ” logic ” when it supports you, and when it doesn’t you leave ” logic ”, stay away from it. You cannot change your methodology whenever you like wherever you want. The ” methodology ” that you use to refute a7adeeth, apply that on the Qoraan, and you’ll see that the Qoraan won’t come through it also, and you’ll see that there won’t be any deen left.
I repeat my point, if the Qoraan was all explaining itself, then the ayaat would have to come after each other in the same soerah. Like if it mentions salaah, then ayaat that explains salaah would have to be there too, but where are they? Nowhere. Was it hard for Allah s.w.a. to reveal an ayah, just a single long ayah where he explained the salaah to it’s finest details? Ofcourse it wasn’t, but why didn’t he do it? Because ACCEPTING and BELIEVING and OBEYING His Messenger without questions is a part of the deen too, that is a part of the exam too which he is putting us through. Or are you suggesting that Allah s.w.a. left his prophet and the believers(his companions) with questions? Telling them to pray, but not explaining how and when and where? :O This is what you Qoraniyyoon suggest, because you try to compile all ayaat about salaah in the Qoraan and then you try to form a prayer, (though nowhere in the Qoraan does it state they are in connection with the prayer the prophet prayed) which you don’t succeed in at all, doing this means, the prophet had to do that also, doing this means, to understand salaah you need to take the whole book in picture, which means all those soeraat have had to be revealed at the same to, otherwise understanding prayer would’ve been impossible, because, you guys try to understand the salaah from all those ayaat together where salaah is mentioned (and you still fail to give an solid answer you still fail to come up with something solid, some of you even say salaah doesn’t exist you can do it any way you want), and some of you even say, the only Qoraan people; ” To understand the prayer in the Qoraan a lot of knowledge and work is needed ”, only thing I can say is LOL. So contradicting to the fully explained fully crystal clear book concept. I really can come up with many other examples like this. My questions have no end.. Which made me leave the qoraniyyoon sect, because nothing made sense after giving it a serious honest thought.. Everyone was sayin g” i think ” ” i think ” ” in my opinion ” ” what is your opinion ”.. though they didn’t and I didnt back then have any knowledge about anything at all, no arabic no usul no history nothing.
Hey Ilimtalibi,
In which verse does it clearly say we must accept hadeeth?
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
This is the problem with qoraniyyoon approach,
It doesn’t have to say clearly ” hadeeth ” in any verse and it is not only about accepting ” hadeeth ”, ” ahadeeth of the prophet ” is just a term that we use to describe his words/saying, his sunnah, it’s the part we describe as obeying the messenger, it’s about accepting the teachings of prophet Muhammad s.a.w., that he had authorisation to do this, that his job wasn’t simply being a DHL-dude and that the Qoraan alone isn’t enough, that we HAVE to OBEY HIM in anything in relation to the deen, and the proof for that is that Qoraan doesn’t explain things in detail, it is open to different understandings, it directs us to the prophet AND that what has been passed on by the companions of the prophet is way more than only the Qoraan, and with that accepting his actions, manners, sayings, commands about the deen as a part of the deen, that has been passed on by the as7aab. Because the as7aab did so also. His teachings were passed on as his sunnah and a7adeeth, so his teachings, his explainings, his commands, his actions, his way of life, we just define that as the sunnah of him and his a7adeeth. There is no meaning to be stuck at the word ” hadeeth ”. It’s about whether he had the authorisation to do so, and yes, take the Qoraan verses as they are, he does, and yes, take the Qoraan verses the way the his companions did, he does. Take the information that has been passed down of his companions, he does. Take it with the historical information, he does.
In many verses it says obey the messenger, those verses are clear, accept what he gives to you, what he tells you, that he teaches, that he explains, that he is an example for us. All those ayaat we have discussed up above. They direct you to the prophet. That what he teached his companions, it has been passed on as his sunnah, his sayings and his actions were passed as ” 7adeeth of the prophet ”. The explaining and teaching and purifying functions of the prophet, the content of that is defined as his sunnah, his a7adeeth. Call it something else? What does it matter, the important part is, that those things are part of his prophethood. It is what the Qoraan directs us to obey to. We have to obey what he teached, told, explained, did, commanded, those we call his sunnah. a7adeeth are part of that.
We can just turn the question around again, and ask in which verse does it clearly say not to accept? Which are we going to take? On one side there is nothing against it, on the other side there are many things that support it.
We say, we have to take the Qoraan together with the people that learned from the prophet.
Hey Ilimtalibi,
Where does it say in the Quran that obeying the messenger means to accept hadith? If the Quran does not say it, then it is merely conjecture.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
I have answered that question many times now, you have to take the complete package that comes from those that passed on the Qoraan and the deen. There are historical facts that can’t be denied and the fact that Qoran directs you to the prophet and other sources besides it to understand it, and things are left unexplained etc. But I notice that all my questions are being left unanswered.
The Qoraan simply says to obey the messenger, his companions simply passed on what the messenger teached them, what they saw from him. If the messenger teached his companions things about the deen, if they saw things from him, and they have passed it on and teached their children, then that is proof to accept it, it is not a conjecture, it is a basic fact. What is conjecture is anything except things we got from the prophet and his companions.
Your question is not relevant. You cannot find exact wording in the Qoraan. That is not the way the Qoraan works. It is a book sent to a person, and it’s verses were revealed on causes, events that happened in the life time of the prophet and his companions. So you must take it with them, because the book is based on their life time, their events. Those persons (companions of the prophet) were in direct contact with the prophet, they took it as they saw it from him, and passed it on. Does this have to be stated in the Qoraan to be true?
Like I said, the Qoraan supports the messenger playing an important role of explaining, teaching, ruling, it directs us to us, so does the information that the companions passed on to us.
But if this is not enough for you and you choose to ignore those facts and just go on your own way, then you are left without nothing, and you cannot be taken serious at all. Because your claims cannot be build on the Qoraan at all, bring me any ayaat that you claim it proves ” only qoraan ”, alhamdoelillah I’ll refute any of them and show they are being taken out of context, or their meaning is being changed, or own interpretation based on own thoughts are being add. And that way everyone is creating his/her own deen.. Which is, like I said, exactly the reason to hold on to the sunnah of the prophet, his understanding of the deen. That is the one you can build your deen on.
Otherwise, why would what you say be binding to me? Nowhere the Qoraan does say that. And you can just apply this question on anything and anyone, and nothing will be left for you. Just like your question, where does it say in the Qoran that obeying the messenger is not to accept hadith or yes indeed, to accept hadith, but where does it say it’s only to accept Qoran, or not to accept Qoran? Those questions, ask them to yourself, not to me, because I am not the one that claims it has to state everything in the Qoran, I’m not the one that is saying if it isn’t in the Qoran then it can’t be true. So yeah, you have to ask those questions yourself, and the Qoran will not give you any answer on this at all, you’ll be left empty handed with nothing.
I have given you many answers according to the belief of the prophet and the companions, we are merely following the deen they passed on to us, if you say that isn’t binding to me, then sure, go ahead your way, but don’t accept the Qoraan, because that comes from them too. Because there is nothing for you in that book. Deen means certainty, the Qoraan does not give you 100% certainty, it leaves you in doubts, it leaves you empty handed with questions on many things.
But just repeating, the Qoraan says to obey the messenger, which is proof that his job wasn’t simply being the post-man. The as7aab did everything the way he did and they passed it on. And from them we got the Qoraan and the deen.
Peace.
Hey Ilimtalibi,
Hadeeth Acceptors INTERPOLATE WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION in the Qoraan that we NEED hadeeth and the Prophet’s companions to be able to obey the Messenger and understand the Qoraan. The Qoraan says no such thing and gives no authorization for hadeeth.
“…..Qoran directs you to the prophet and other sources besides it to understand it…..”
In which verse does the Qoraan direct us to “other sources”?
Where does the Qoraan tell us to obey the Messenger THROUGH what the companions have (purportedly) passed on?
In which verse does it say that the Qoraan comes through the companions?
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
You’ll keep asking questions that don’t make sense without answering any of my questions won’t you. You only expect answers, but you answer nothing and think by asking and running from questions, and by thinking forcing your way into a ” win ” with questions that are not valid at all you are achieving something. You are totally losing sense, without being able to answer anything at all with answers that make sense, I’d wish there’d be answers, even if they’d make no sense, but there are none at all, you are forcing your self into a hole without noticing, where you seriously are totally losing your sense, starting to deny even the most normal basic facts, just to be able to survive and get out of it, you are making up any question you can. You are totally losing vision and the questions start to lose sense, and on the other hand I don’t know how it is hard for you to understand, that you should ask questions like this (if you think they are valid questions with sense) about the Qoraan to yourself and try to answer them yourself if they make sense, I am not the one claiming that everything should be in the Qoraan, it is you. But I now will do the same, and I’ll show you nonsense, your rubbish.
That’s what you say, that’s not what the Qoraan says, and thats also not what the prophet said and not what the as7aab said. Show me an ayah where it says what you say ;)? Or show me a single evidence from the history that they did, you cannot even do that. Not like you have any right to use historical informations. Like I said, lets play it the Qoraniyyoon way. You cannot prove me the Qoraan is enough or that it denies the a7adeeth and the companions. Nowhere does the Qoraan limit the source only to itself, nor does it limit the prophets authorizatiion. If it does, just come, prove it to me directly from the Qoraan. But before being able to do that, you have to prove to me that this book is really from mohammads time, for that you’ll have to proof when mohammads time was with verses from teh qoraan, then that it was really written all good, which verse tells this? And which verse tells teh arabic writing in the time of the prophet and now is the same, and that it evolded it correctly without touching the qoraans meaning? And then you have to proof that it is translated correctly, from the Qoraan with a verse that says it is translated correctly and that it should be translated. And then you have to prove the arabic language is used in the correct way Allah s.w.a. meant it. Prove this all from the Qoraan. But the funny part is, you cannot even prove the Qoraan is unchanged, you cannot prove that it is al all registered correctly and passed on correctly (if you can do it with ayaat do so! otherwise i wont accept it and then its not true!!!!!), and then you come and use a book which’s background is a big question mark (to your belief coz you deny everything except the book) and use it as evidence. Where do you base your book on? Did you get it directly from Allah s.w.a., you getting revelation?
The Qoraan’s NATURE DIRECTS YOU TO OTHER SOURCES BESIDES IT (IF IT DOESNT, answer ALL OF MY QUESTIONS asked on this PAGE WITH ONLY VERSES because you say qoraan is enough) and also it’s CONTENTS/AYAAT DO SO also (like discusses earlier) and also the historical information does so. We have discussed this already, but you are being ignorant. But like I said, I will play it the qoraniyyoon way. But the funny thing about the qoraniyyoon way is, they only apply this methodology on denying a7adeeth and other things, but when it comes to the qoraan, they should only believe in it that its the book from god unchanged, then they stop asking those questions. What hypocrisy, how weak. Because they know, applying this methodology on the Qoraan will destroy the Qoraan also, i can guarantee the Qoraan cannot survive the qoraniyyoon methodology, and then they’ll be left with nothing.
Where does the Qoraan limit the source to itself?
Where do you get your qoraan from, which verse proves your source got it from prophet?
In which verse does the Qoraan direct you to this blog to talk about it?
In which verse does the Qoraan direct you to read the qoraan in another language at all????
In which verse does the Qoraan say qoraniyyoon should make websites and propagate their belief??? (in reply to your question where does it say in qoran ashaab passed things on, oh no, ofcourse they didnt, thats not how life works does it?)
Why did Allah sent it in arabic, many dont know arabic, why do they have to depend on translator, which havent been given any authorization to translate at all in the qoraan, and no where does it say everyone needs to learn arabic, so if he wanted it, he couldve sent it in all languages?? He says we have to understand, but nowhere does he say to translate it, and read it from translation, in which does he say this, show me? If he doesnt, why are you doing this??
In which verse does the qoraan say we have to read it from the internet, that the internet on the qoraan is really what the prophet recited?
And where does it say we have to buy the qoraan from a bookstore?? Isnt that shirk :O?? (the way how you qoraniyyoon declare everything shirk except your own belief)
In which verse does the qoraan say person A or person B have had the authorisation to translate it??
In which verse did Allah command the prophet to make a book of the Qoraan? Where did he command it to write? How could tehy write it if Allah did not command it?
Where does the qoraan tell us to obey you or any other translator, or any other distributor of the qoraan to take the book from them?
Where does the qoraan say you should recite the verses and talk about them with others? why would your ” truth ” be better than mine or someone elses, which verse states this?
Where does it say in the Qoraan how it is passed on, where it comes from?
In which verse does the Qoraan tell the origin of the Qoraan you have in your hand??
In which verse does it explain the meanings of the arabic language??
Where does it say in the Qoraan obeying messenger is obeying qoraan and nothing else, and where does it say the ashaab shouldnt have understood obey messenger the normal way,not the most logical way, but like you imply it?
Where does it say the ashaab didnt pass on the Qoraan?? (unbelievable that you’ve asked a question like this)
Where does it say that obeying messenger is not through what the companions have passed on? (unbelievable also)
Where does it say the companions didnt pass on anything? Where does your Qoraan come from?? Where does it say in the Qoraan that it is for us to understand it too? It isnt!!! IT HAS BEEN TRANSLATED AND GIVEN MEANING BY PERSONS WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION in the Qoraan that we need TRANSLATIONS to be able to understand it. So, deny the Qoran you have, throw it away?
It was only for the arab speaking ppl that the Qoraan is revealed, thus the Qoraan is in contradiction with itself too, because it says we have sent it in arabic so you can understand, on the other hand it says we have sent it to mankind!!! No, dont make interpretations dont make comments and try to explain things! The Qoraan is enough, and this is what the qoraan says, nothing else except this book can be accepted it explains itself!!!
Hadeeth deniers INTERPOLATE WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION in the Qoraan that we dont NEED hadeeth. The Qoraan says no such thing and gives no authorization for denying hadeeth. This is a FACT, nothing like this is stated anywhere in the Qoraan, if there is, show me, without adding any interpretation because you dont believe interpretation is needed. Your claim/question isn’t a fact, but an assumption. Because none of the ayaat you use LIMITS anything to the Qoraan at all, where on the otherside, the literal meaning of those ayaat directs you to something else than only the Qoraan, the prophet. Because like discussed earlier, Qoraan directs us to the prophet, to be able to reach the prophet you need the COMPANIONS, to REACH the companions you need the tabe3een, to reach them you need taba tabe3een, to reach them you need their followers until this time. Now, tell, how do you reach the Qoraan without those :O ? You getting revelation?
In which verse does the Qoraan not direct us to “other sources”? I have given you the verses that direct us to the prophet, i have given you verses that are obviously not clear, and cannot be understood clearly with only the qoraan also. Now, where does Qoraan limit the source with only itself.
Where does the Qoraan tell us to not obey the Messenger THROUGH what the companions have (purportedly) passed on?
In which verse does it say that the Qoraan does not come through the companions?
I’ll be waiting for answers, those questions obviously MAKE SENSE(dont they?), who cares about history, who cares about natural flow of the human life, who cares about the natural course, those questions obviously don’t go in against the nature of the qoraan, only from qoraan pls.
And funny, to claim that the ashaab passed on nothing by saying ” purportedly ”. Proof it from the Qoraan, which verse? It was obvious you were going to attack the information that has been passed on by the as7aab now without any evidence against it, after not being able to refute my point of needing them, you now come and try to make their position weak without any evidence just dry assumptions that they are ” (purportedly) ” passed on, so you can strenghten your only qoraan claim. And with this, you also confess that even if there’d be information from the as7aab (which we have) you wouldn’t believe them, accept them, you’d even deny the as7aab, those that met the prophet and learned the qoraan and the deen from him. By doing this, you go on, and this time you start denying that the qoraan hasnt been passed on by them, totally losing the grip on the matter totally talking nonsense and in fact weakening your own position even more, by conforming yourself that even you don’t know where the book comes from.. even denying that they are the ones that wrote it and made it a book and passed it on to others after prophets dead. Can it get and weirder and absurd?
You totally deny the existence of TIME and LIFE in the prophets life, like TIME didn’t exist, like LIFE didn’t exist. Things didnt happen, ashaab didnt exist, there were no days, no night no day, everything stopped, only a prophet existed, and somehow magically you got the qoraan from him without anything between. There were no people that were helping him supporting him, they werent writing the qoraan, and when the prophet died, they didnt pass on what they learned from him, no no, back then, time stopped, life stopped, every course of life stopped, logic and common sense stopped, humanity didnt function the way it normally should nope, they didnt, nothing worked the way it normally always worked. The ashaab didnt do crap, nor did their followers.. they didnt know where the qoraan came from too, nah, they only lied and lied and lied, only fabricated about the deen and the prophet.. any truth to the prophets life was destroyed, they wrote tales about him, they made things up.. and since they werent the ones that got the Qoraan from the prophet and they didnt pass it on, somehow magically the qoraan got into your and other qoraniyyoons hands. The ashaab said, nowhere does it say we should pass on the qoraan, so they didnt pass it on.. those hand written qoraan werent written by them, no no. It wasnt the prophet also, because the qoraan didnt order him to do so, the qoraan doesnt say that one particular qoraan isnt written by him, so it cant be, it shouldnt be. So who was it? It was magic. Somehow, the ones (companions) that are the only ones that can pass on the qoraan didnt pass it on. And somehow, without them (the liars about the deen of Allah and the prophet, the fabricators of ahadeeth, the writers or tales lies corruption anything) passing on the Qoraan protecting it, it somehow came to us unchanged. Yeah.. Wow, nice, makes sense.
This is going nowhere, seriously. This doesn’t have any point at all. I cannot be serious anymore, because your intention is not to understand it or to find the truth, you have made this clear, you are making things absurd with your questions, you cannot even answer a simple question like the prayer, fasting, zakaah etc etc, the questions I asked on my first post on this page but you just go on and on. And the posts i’ve made after that, I have asked simple NORMAL questions about the Qoraan too, NONE of those were answered, which cannot be answered with the qoraan, but at this point i wouldnt even mind you using other sources as answers, but you cannot even come up with those. I continued to examine every word you and others said, every claim you qoraniyyoon stated. I’ve analyzed them, first I’ve refuted them with the Qoraan and logic and asked questions, afterwards I’ve refuted them according to the belief of ahl al-sunnah and asked questions about them and evidence, none you could show or answer. You all come and just ignore every point I’ve made, every question I asked, and you just go on and on and start asking questions just to be able to lock me, which you are failing in, because I just am able to answer and refute them alhamdoelillah and return those same absurd questions to you the other way, and you aren’t able to answer at all, you are not able to show a standard at all to your understanding and methodology, and you just continue with the nonsense asking. And you ofcourse deny any refutation i’ve made, even if it makes sense your brain probably forces you to think/believe that everything I tell is nonsense (i know that feeling), even if it sounds like it makes sense, it just cant, it doesnt, because you are right you see what most of us cant see in teh qoraan, but in truth its because youve closed your eyes and ears and your heart to anything except your own belief, even if you dont have answers, because you just cannot accept 7aqq, you are blinded by your own arrogance.
If something is purported, that is everything you say and ask. Because you seriously have nothing to base your arguments on, not even the Qoraan. You cannot even base the Qoraan on something or someone. You cannot even base your own interpretation on the Qoraan, because on one side you deny the existance of Qoraan tafseer, saying the Qoraan explains itself being its own tafseer, that its all crystal clear, on the other side you come with things that are not in the Qoraan, you cannot come with ayaat that say what you mean, that are totally your own thoughts, interpretations. Your methodology is in conflict with your arguments about the Qoraan, and many other things you do and say are too. The Qoraan itself is in conflict with anything you say. I’ve already pointed this out in my other posts above and none of them have been refuted, have they? I seriously have pointed out too many things already, its tiring.
We only talk with evidence, that is ahl al-sunnah. We base our belief on the prophet, like the companions and their followers did. OFCOURSE I will answer your questions according to ahl al-sunnah. Is there a reason for me to come with only Qoraan (though I did and you couldn’t even refute that), I don’t accept the only qoraan belief, so why are you expecting me to come with only Qoraan? Why do you expect from me to show everything from the Qoraan? Who says everything has to be there? Not even the Qoraan says that, it is you qoraniyyoon who claims it says that after ading your own meaning to the ayaat, like you say we claim it says to obey prophet by hadeeth where it doesnt according to you, which with literal meaning and historical facts it does anyway. It is funny you even ask me to show verses in the Qoraan about historical events that happened after the prophets death in the natural course of life for example passing on the deen they got from the prophet. That means you believe that LITERALLY EVERYTHING about ANYTHING should be in the Qoraan. So, I did the same and asked you things logically are not to be found in the qoraan, to proof them from the Qoraan. Throwing aside any common sense like you do. But again, I don´t say everything has to be in Qoraan, but you do, so you are the one that has to proof everything I asked from the Qoraan, if you come with other things than the Qoraan like historical information or your own thoughts, comments etc, then you are leaving your own methodology of only Qoraan. If you don´t answer those questions, that means your methodology is flawed too and that your belief is not right. You come here and deny EVERYTHING, SIMPLY EVERY EVIDENCE and every INFORMATION that EVERY SECT, even the LOST sects always have accepted from the beginning of the Islaam, and even the western world the kuffaar accepts. And then you come and talk, but what do you talk with? Where do you base your claims on? Even to reject hadeeth you come and say they are written 200 years later, hey, where does the qoraan say they were written 200 years later (which is a lie)? You think you talk with the Qoraan, though you know you don’t, it’s just your self, your thoughts talking, shaping the Qoraan, just empty assumptions, you cannot prove anything nor disprove anything. Where you can’t find a way out, you come and start talking with historical information outside qoraan to prove your point. Or you only keep on asking where in qoraan where in qoraan where in qoraan when you cant find a way out. You can even get lost that much that you start asking evidence in the Qoraan for historical events after the prophets death like who said companions passed on who said we hve to listen to what they say where deos the qoraan say that etc. Its time to ask your self where your claims and assumptions are in the qoraan, because that is what YOU believe in and NOT ME. My methodology is accepting from the prophet, and that is the Qoraan and the sunnah, and with this accepting it from his companions, because they are the ones that got those from him and passed it on.
A few typos* in the post above. I should make it a habit to read my posts before posting them.
*By doing this, you go on, and this time you start denying that the qoraan ***has*** been passed on by them, totally losing the grip on the matter totally talking nonsense and in fact weakening your own position even more, by conforming yourself that even you don’t know where the book comes from.
*It wasnt the prophet also, because the qoraan didnt order him to do so, the qoraan doesnt say that one particular qoraan ***is*** written by him, so it cant be, it shouldnt be. (***which it isnt anyway***)
Hey Ilimtalibi,
“….. why are you expecting me to come with only Qoraan?”
Because the Qoraan does not authorize hadeeth.
“We only talk with evidence…..”
This is false because you have produced no evidence from the Qoraan that hadeeth are authorized by Allah or that hadeeth are required to obey the Messenger or understand the Qoraan.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
Just like I expected,
´´Because the Qoraan does not authorize hadeeth.´´
Prove this from the Qoraan. The Qoraan authorizes the prophet.
´´This is false because you have produced no evidence from the Qoraan that hadeeth are authorized by Allah or that hadeeth are required to obey the Messenger or understand the Qoraan.´´
And again, prove that Allah s.w.a. limits the deen only to the Qoraan and that the qoraan doesn´t authorize to accept the hadeeth (words of prophet). Prove to me that the prophet didnt have authorization. It first started with limiting the prophets authorization, but you all fail in that once the ayah are taken in context, and same with ahadeeth, you cannot prove me from the Qoraan we have to deny it or that they are false. Come with Qoraan only, because the Qoraan doesn’t authorize you to talk about it, interpretate it 😉 So only Qoraan ayah which exactly say what you say.
I have shown my evidence, I have refuted all of your claims, you cannot show me a single ayah that says what you claim, I have asked my questions, none have been answered. Everything you say is false, because you cannot produce any evidence from the Qoraan.
I’ll wait for your only Qoraan answers to my questions I’ve asked on this page, solid answers that leave no doubt, no room for questions.
Actually, for now, just tell me how to pray in detail from only Qoraan. What praying is and how we have to do that, every step. Then proof to me that the prophet did it that way too, and that it was really what Allah s.w.a. meant by praying.
But like I said, ONLY AYAAT, nothing else. No words, no comments, no interpretations, no own thoughts, no examples outside of the Qoraan, only ayaat. With TAKING THE AYAAT in the ORDER they were REVEALED! Which makes only sense to do so, we both agree on this I think?
Hey Ilimtalibi,
“I have shown my evidence…..”
Your “evidence” doesn’t prove that we need hadeeth to obey the Messenger or to understand the Qoraan. For arguments sake, even if I cannot prove any of the points you have asked, this still does not prove that we need hadeeth. So there is nothing to compel anybody to accept hadeeth. This is why Hadeeth Rejectors are not doing anything wrong by rejecting hadeeth.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
Like I said earlier, there are some historical facts (events & information) that can’t be denied and you can’t just go around it. If you do, then you’ll have to prove them false, which you obviously cannot.
I have taken you on from many sides, many fronts, I am still waiting for you to bring in some answers, if you cannot and if you cannot prove your point it’s stubborn to go on like you do and act like you have something to base on and that you are on a right path, though it’s not about whether I am right or you are wrong or vice versa, it’s about what is haqq(truth) and what is not, and so far that what I believe to be haqq is winning, you haven’t been able to provide anything at all.
The Qoraan itself proves that it needs the prophet to understand it, to make the deen complete. The book was revealed to him hello, how can you put his words aside? Without the messengers function/role the deen is not complete, many things miss. If you say no, and claim that there is no need for a messenger then you’ll have to answers those questions, not for arguments sake, but for your self and the truths sake. Only with trying to answer those questions you’ll come to realize that the book is indeed too open to many understandings and that many things just are not explained, and that first of all, a translation isn’t the original book at all and some things just can’t be translated and that you depend on many other factors to be able to understand it a bit, that without historical information some things cannot be understood and many other things.
So we agree on that the Qoraan doesn’t reject the prophets authorization and role of explaining and teaching and purifying and so doesn’t reject ahadeeth? If you say that rejecting them is not wrong, because you say Qoraan doesn’t say we have to accept them, okay, but you also cannot prove Qoraan does reject them, so that means that accepting them isn’t wrong also according to your methodology then I assume?
There are so many things that compel you to accept ahadeeth, obeying the messenger, accepting his judgment, his ruling, the Qoraan leaving many things empty/open, messenger getting revelation besides the Qoraan, the companions passing on the deen they learned from the prophets, historical events, information that proves that those who saw the prophet and learned the deen from them and his companions did it this way. Like I said, it’s too big of an ocean which can’t be simply denied. If you prefer to do so, sure, that is up to you, I can only tell you, I cannot do more. But it seems like even if you’d believe those words come 100% from the prophet you still wouldn’t accept them, am I right?
The biggest difference between ahlu al-sunnah and hadeeth rejectors is that none of them can for certain say that they are on the right path/deen, because I’ve met so many and their thoughts (their deen) change daily. They are divided in to hundreds. They have no certainty in their belief, like its childs play it can change daily. I even know one of them, qoraniyyoon for years now, first was eating halaal meat, now claiming according to his understanding of the qoraan the meat in supermarket is probably halaal even if it is not slaughtered according to the islamic law in the name of Allah, that the sunnah about it is non-sense, and who knows, maybe you think that way too, took him years to understand this.. funny he says the book is all clear, it took him years figure out what halaal is and what not, and he still is in doubt, saying ” I don’t say it’s for sure so but it’s what I think. ” Another one of them, now in doubt about ” salaah ” in the Qoraan, saying he isn’t sure what ” salaah ” is anymore, being qoraniyyoon for over 10 years (him) and having prayed like us (ahlu al-sunnah) for years, after YEARS of study he isn’t sure anymore about ” salaah ”, saying he can’t figure out what it is.. At the same time saying that Allah made the book clear and that everything is explained in it, funny it’s taking him years to figure out what salaah is, and now he is totally confused and he doesn’t know what the ” salaah ” in the Qoraan is. Just another thing to note, talking with him, he always tells me things and then says ” this is the way I think, I don’t know if it’s right or wrong, I’m just trying my best ” etc.. Like all of them. Each having their own deen. Each of them refuting ahadeeth and any book besides the Qoraan because Qoraan is enough they say, but they all show the audacity to write books and articles about the deen, they show the audacity to publish websites to propagate their belief. What hypocrisy.
^ This is the qoraniyyoon understanding of the Islaam, there is no deen at all, just wild guesses and assumptions based on nothing but own capacity, thoughts, knowledge and illusions. Though, understanding the Qoraan shouldn’t depend on external factors like capacity, thoughts, knowledge etc, should it? Because the book is ” all clear ”, it ” explains ” everything in itself, the Qoraan verses should be enough.
Come to the truth my friend. Don’t be ignorant.
Peace.
Hey Ilimtalibi,
“If you say that rejecting them is not wrong, because you say Qoraan doesn’t say we have to accept them, okay…..”
So you agree that rejecting hadeeth is not wrong? If so, there is nothing more to discuss because you agree with me that hadeeth rejection is not wrong.
“So we agree on that the Qoraan …… doesn’t reject ahadeeth?”
Even if the Qoraan doesn’t reject hadeeth, it doesn’t make ahadeeth compulsory.
“There are so many things that compel you to accept ahadeeth…..“
You are merely using conjecture to argue that we are “compelled” to accept hadeeth.
Furthermore, there are no instructions in the Qoraan to the companions to write down the ordinary words of the messenger so that we can obey him after he is no longer among us.
Peace.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
No, I don’t agree that rejecting them is not wrong, I was talking about your point of view. My statement is that it is wrong to reject them, that what we’ve been discussing all along. Nice example of taking things out of context though ;).
Well, we keep repeating the same things over and over, the difference is that I’ve answered many things, explained many things according to many the Qoraan and historical facts. You just kept denying them without any evidence nor could you show anything to prove your own point. The Qoraan makes the Prophet compulsory, and those that met the prophet have passed on what they’ve got from him, his sunnah. If you think that doesn’t bind you, it’s your choice.
Actually I am basing my arguement on many things, it is not a simple conjecture. That is more like you, that denies the whole history and tries to understand Qoraan in his own way. What gives you guarantee? Basing your belief on those that got it from the prophet, having a source to base things on, or doing this alone your own way, having nothing at all, except the Qoraan (which can’t be even proven complete, true and unchanged if you deny the ummah), giving it your own interpretation.
You are comming to conclusions without even giving any arguments, evidences. That is weird. Dude, the Qoraan didn’t instruct anybody to write the Qoraan too and that we should obey the Qoraan after the prophets death isn’t stated in it also, if it does show me. I’ve already given so many arguments that your viewpoint is flawed, it’s not right at all. The Qoraan doesn’t say to translate nor to learn arabic too, which means it isn’t sent for us to understand, only arabs that know very good classic arabic langauge, and then even they cannot understand it without the necessary information about the prophet and his words This logic is flawed, this logic is unlogical, approaching the deen like this is flawed.
The companions always obeyed the messenger, they always have narrated his words even in the beginning, later on they wrote it also messenger didn’t stop them, in some ahadeeth he even ordered it. But not everyone was busy with this, many were just normal people busy with daily life, but there were some people of knowledge, tullaab al-ilm, they were the ones that were busy, they always existed, and they are of VERY importance and they have PASSED on the deen to us too, if the Qoraan would’ve been enough and nothing else needed Allah s.w.a. wouldn’t have stated in the Qoraan in soerat at-tawbah ayah 122, that there should be always a group left back, to obtain deep understanding in the deen, he doesn’t say the Qoraan, he says DEEN, ” liyatafaqqahuu fiddeen ”. What do people have to say about the deen, when the Qoraan is there? I thought it was all crystal clear and nothing else was needed.
They were not like this is Qoraan this is not so I don’t accept it, they were just doing things the way they saw it from the messenger, they were taking over things he was telling them, teaching them, showing them. That just makes sense and is the flow of life, like how the Qoraan was being written, that is just common-sense, and it is HOW IT ALL HAPPENED.
Like how the companions brought all the Qoraan pieces together, compelling the Qoraan, because the revelation was done, and making a book of it. But they didn’t think of doing this until about 70 7uffaaz had died in battle, once many 7uffaaz died they saw the need to do it, so they did. Though it is not stated in the Qoraan nor did the messenger order them to do so. But it is just the flow of life, the logic way of things taking their way.
Just like when the prophet was alive, everyone were asking their questions to him, the messenger was there, he was the walking Qoraan and the prophet of Allah, they’d just go to him ask things, they weren’t like you asking ” show me this ayah that ayah, no this is not in the qoraan so i dont believe in you ”, no, messengers word was enough for anything, most of them didn’t even have Qoraan in their homes, most of them didn’t even know the whole Qoraan. most were ordinary people, not everyone was studying the understanding of the deen, taking it over in detail. It was only normal it was this way, because he was alive back then, just like his practices, his words, they became a part of the companions life, it was the deen itself, it was the natural flow of their life, his sunnah, his understanding of deen was in their practice of the deen their life, it is only logical that when the prophet was alive, and after the prophets death when there still were many companions they didn’t make books of them, but that was the same way with the Qoraan, that doesn’t prove anything, like it doesn’t prove that there was no written Qoraan in the time of the prophet because we don’t have the original manuscriptures today. The arabs back then didn’t write that much. We have a few original manuscriptures from the companions today though, which contain ahadeeth, which proves their existence, their narration and importance. This also doesn’t damage Qoraan’s preservation, that there are no original manuscripts (Our belief though you cannot prove the Qoraan preservation with historical facts because you deny them and slander them with lying). To them it was just normal, the sunnah living it, like it was normal in the time of the prophet the Qoraan not to be written down by everyone and making books of them just living the deen accepting anything from him.
When other societies entered Islam though, leaving their own beliefs, but despite of that taking things from their own beliefs in to the Islaam, their culture etc, that is when an uprising started and the need of writing everything down and sorting it out surged, because others had started to mix things with the Islaam, or taking their philosophical beliefs with them in to the Islaam, thus starting to deny some things, starting to change things etc, applying their own methodology own belief, thoughts on the Islaam, things that weren’t from the Islaam, conflicting the deen that was passed on from the prophet. This is when the scholars of the deen started an uprising and started to fight against corruption and wrote everything down, this is what we cal ahl al-sunnah, it isn’t a madhap like other, not a sect, it’s the Islam itself, the deen that came from the prophet.
You’ll probably deny everything and say those are assumptions, but then we say, then the Qoraan in your hand belongs to those assumptions too, because it’s where it came from. Those were the most honest people that ever existed.. even writing down, passing down their wrongdoings, even passing down their worst errors, even passing down the disasters that happened, like the companions fighting each other in the time of 3ali r.a. because of political reasons. They have passed down every little thing that happened, good or bad. Do not forget, the COMPANIONS of the prophet WERE one of HIS WONDERS too. You guys don’t understand the Qoraan at all, you don’t see the point in it at all, the focus in it is all about CREATING a GOOD SOCIETY in the time of the prophet with the prophet. Some things that are accomplished there are not possible without the prophet. Why create a good society, why is it so focused on the society of the prophet? Think about it i’d say, yeah of course every ayah still applies today, but the fact the book is released to a prophet and his society means they are needed and very important, those ayaat we cannot bring in to practice, we cannot reach the level of the companions, not without the prophet, not without his understanding. The society of the prophet is still living today in books. Allah s.w.a. could’ve sent a book in the form of what we should believe, what we should do and shouldn’t do clearly, explain it all, what is good and what is bad, and give us examples, and bam, done, nothing to discuss nothing to do. But no, the Qoraan came to revelation on events that happened in the prophets time and many things were left for the prophet to explain. It was focused on creating the best society that ever existed, and they still exist today in books. Even though they fought each other, they killed each other, none of those things were in connection to the deen, it didn’t do anything to their belief, their honesty, they didn’t touch a thing of it, they just passed it on pure. Believing the prophet blindly, taking the deen from him is a part of the deen and Allah s.w.a.’s trial. Basing your belief only on the Qoraan with nothing else, is just false, everything in the book and history proves that, Sunnah of Allah s.w.a. proves that too, because the way you think it should happen is not the way Allah s.w.a. does things, because he also sent messenger with and without books (which is according to your brain impossible), he didn’t preserve the other books (which is according to your brain impossible too), he let some of his messengers die by the hands of their people, he didnt preserve other messages. You ahadeeth rejectors don’t surrender to the order of Allah s.w.a, no, you except him to think like you, or, you think he (Allah s.w.a.) thinks like you, does like you, but he is far from that, far from your logic, he does anything the way he wants, he knows everything the best. We take things the way they happened in the time of the prophet, because if you’ll apply ” logic ” and ” thinking ” on everything, then there are two ways, just accept ANYTHING as it is or just LEAVE it completely. The way you guys go around with the deen, that is like questioning Allah s.w.a.’s WILL. Denying historical facts that is. You want it to go your own way, not according to Allah’s will. Allah does things the way he wants to. It is UNIMAGINABLE that Allah s.w.a. sent his last deen, completed his deen, but not preserved it. It is unimagenable that ALL THOSE people that met the prophet LIED about him, made things up. And like proven EARLIER, the Qoraan is not the complete deen. IF you deny all this, dude, just deny the Qoraan too, come on, it’s absurd to go on like this. Take something from me even though I am the biggest liar? Then what guarantee you have in that book. What sense is there to it. You didn’t get the Qoraan directly from Allah s.w.a. or through one of his angels, no, NONE of us did. Accept the source that the Qoraan came from or just leave it.
Surrender to Allah’s will, you don’t have any other choice. Because the book you believe that came from Allah s.w.a., that is passed down on by humanity, written down by them, shaped by them. Given 7arakaat and dots by them and what not. It’s the way things happened, denying them has no point, that is just non-sense. Those people, they were wonders, they were humans yes, like the prophet was, but they were wonders, given tarbiyyah, education by the prophet. Them making errors doesn’t take away the fact many of them were wonders. Like as7aab al-kahf were wonders too, ordinary persons, sleeping for hundreds of years in a cave, if Allah wants it that is enough. That some things are not mentioned in the Qoraan or that it doesn’t make sense for you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, that they weren’t there etc. That is just, I don’t know, so foolish to think of it that way.
Peace.
Correction,
**We take things the way they happened in the time of the prophet, because if you’ll apply ” logic ” and ” thinking ” on everything, then there are two ways, just accept *****EVERYTHING***** as it is or just LEAVE it completely.
Hey Ilimtalibi,
You still haven’t proven from the Qoraan that we must accept hadeeth. You give long replies with no substance or evidence from the Qoraan. Giving long answers doesn’t prove you are right. You only give conjecture, or as you put it, “arguments”. Giving arguments are worthless if you cannot prove your claim from the Qoraan.
You are making a claim that we must accept hadeeth, so you need to provide evidence from the Qoraan. I do not need to provide evidence because I am not making a claim that we must accept hadeeth. If someone says we must accept the Book of Mormons as part of Islam, he needs to prove it from the Qoraan, not me. With your logic, we can accept the Book of Mormons as part of Islam because the Qoraan does not reject it.
What you call “historical facts” are not necessarily accurate or based on reliable evidence. Also they may not be confirmed in the Qoraan. Christians say Jesus’s crucifixion is a historical fact. But I don’t consider it to be a fact because the Qoraan does not support or confirm this view.
Peace.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
If you want to play mind games with your self, then do so. But that doesn’t work on me. I have proven you from the Qoraan that we must accept the prophet’s command, that we have to obey him. That he teaches, that he explains, that he’s an example. I have asked you questions about the Qoraan, basing on your ” Qoraan is complete and crystal clear, nothign else is needed ” argument, you haven’t been able to answer any of them, and you never can do.
I have provided my evidence from the Qoraan. Obey the messenger, the Qoraan tells you to do that in maybe 40 verses. That is obeying what he teached his companions.
You must provide evidence because you say they are merely conjecture. You say they aren’t reliable, so then, what is your proof they are not? And if so, then you must provide evidence that the Qoraan is no conjecture, that it is unchanged and from God, that it really come out the way we have it now today out the mouth of the prophet. Can you do that? No, you cannot. Because you cannot base your belief nor your book on anything or anyone. The Qoraan doesn’t talk about things like this. Like I said, you aren’t able to refute ANY of my points, my arguments at all. Since when does every argument have to be based in the Qoraan and to be in the Qoraan? I guess when it works out for you, then it does, doesn’t it? But when it’s in your favor, then you all start talking outside the Qoraan and come with things outside the Qoraan. Like now, you talk like you arguments and claims are all in the Qoraan, but no, they aren’t, but you still take them as the truth, and that without anything to base it on. Where are the things you say written in the Qoraan?
This is the capacity and logic of qoraniyyoon is this what you just showed, that comparison just shows how narrow minded you lot are. The origin of ahadeeth are the prophet and his companions, directly in relation to the Islaam where the book of mormons something not related at all which came to existance later and is not related to the Islaam at all. And all of your other comparisons are probably going to be similar, with no thought given to it at all. Don’t call it my logic, it is your logic as you are the one that comes with it, I told you earlier, you lack too much to talk about logic. You fail terribly at it everytime you try it. You brains work the other way around, throwing away logic. Oh yes, qoraan refutes mormons and other religion books. It doesn’t need to call it by name to refute it, and you probably will say, exactly, so it doesn’t call hadeeth by name too to reject it, but that is not the point, the point is, the Qoraan, none of the ayaat refute in no way the command of the prophet, refute the in no way the authority of the prophet, doesn’t limit his power related to the deen and nowhere does it say that the Qoraan is enough and nothing else is needed. It is the opposite LIKE PROVEN EARLIER, OBEY THE MESSENGER, ACCEPT WHAT HE GIVES YOU, and ITS OBVIOUS that what we have to ACCEPT from him ISNT ALL IN THE QORAAN, the proof for that is THAT THE QORAAN DOESN’t EXPLAIN EVEN THE MOST BASIC BUT IMPORTANT THINGS IN IT, if it does, ONCE AGAIN ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN ASKED ABOUT THE QORAAN. What a comparison to do. Try better.
None of your points are enough to refute ahadeeth, from the Qoraan you cannot refute them, from your logic and your look at things you cannot refute the points I made also. From historical point you cannot refuse them. Nothing is there for you to refuse them, where almost EVERYTHING is there that directs to it, but you just cannot accept it.
If that is so, what makes you think the Qoraan is accurate or based on reliable evidence? To say the Qoraan says so is not valid, because for that you’ll have to validate the Qoraans reliability, which you cannot do obviously, because those who passed on the Qoraan are liars according to you, though you cannot prove that. Do some thinking before you talk. There is no difference between the Qoraan, ahadeeth or historical information. They don’t need to be confirmed in the Qoraan. That something isn’t confirmed in the Qoraan doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or that it isn’t reliable. You don’t even have proof that the Qoraan is telling the truth in the first place. To be able to verify that you’ll have to do research, but you cannot do that too, because according to your logic that research would have to be in the Qoraan too. You now come and talk about something else again, comming with another comparison that is totally out of the picture. We are talking about things that were widely ACCEPTED in the FIRST 50-100 years of the ISLAAM, where we have EVIDENCES in the form of BOOKS that have reached today, that are about the ISLAM and not another religion. We are not talking without sources, where the things you come with have no source at all and are not about the Islaam at all, so doh. If you don’t accept that, I don’t care. That isn’t related to the religion at all. But this what we are talking about is about the religion of Allah, and not only one person that met the prophet in person narrated those things, no, dozens of them narrated them, all the same information. And those things have been written in books.
Hey Ilimtalibi,
Your entire claim is defeated because you cannot provide evidence from the Qoraan that we must accept hadeeth and that we need them to be able to obey the messenger and understand the Qoraan.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
You haven’t shown me any evidence that defeats my claim. Not even one. You just keep repeating the same question, when you aren’t able to answer any of my questions at all, where I answered every question and I keep answering them, I answer them I am defeated, you can’t answer any and you win, hmmm, yes indeed, makes sense. Unbelievable haha, just like the other ones you live in an utopia too, thinking you’ve beaten everything and everyone, well, in your thoughts you probably did, even though you cannot answer anything and refute any of my points, your brains are programmed to think they are always victorious. You cannot accept defeat, even when you are defeated you still think you won. What have you provided? You haven’t provided any answer at all. What has been defeated? Lols. You are just playing the standard qoraniyyoon game, answering nothing and when you argument is defeated you come with another one, and when that is defeated you come with another one, and then another one. Just like when the first claim was ” Qoran says it self is enough”, when that was proven to be false from the Qoran it self it was ” Qoran rejects ahadeeth ”, that was proven false also, then it was ” Qoran explains everything there is no need for ahadeeth ”, which was proven false also, then it was ” The prophet doesn’t have any authorization except deliverin the message ”, which was proven false also directly from the Qoraan, then it was ” Where does the Qoraan say we have to listen to ahadeeth ”, which I have proven false also, then you have went on and said ” Where does the Qoraan say the companions passed it on? ”, but you’ve realized that this question wasn’t making any sense, then it was ” Where does the Qoraan say we have to obey what has been passed on ”, which I have answered also, so then you went back to ” Where does the Qoraan say we must accept hadeeth ” and you cling to this one question it is your only hope, I have proven this question, this claim to be wrong many times now, 1. With the Qoraan 2. With historical information 3. With logic, but what have you done to refute my points? Nothing, you just keep repeating the same thing over and over again , and I have answered that a dozen times, we have to obey the messenger, and the Qoraan doesn’t limit that anywhere, it’s the opposite, it leaves many things for the prophet to explain and teach, we have to accept the prophets teachings, you must accept what he has teachen you, those things are passed on under the namer of ahadeeth, If you say that is not so, then it is VERY simple, refute my points come with better ones, come with answers. But the thing is, there is nothing to come with for you.
When are you going to answer my questions?
Hey Ilimtalibi,
“You haven’t shown me any evidence that defeats my claim.”
If I don’t show evidence that defeats your claim, this does not prove your claim to be true. And you have utterly failed to prove your claim from the Qoraan that we must accept hadeeth and that we need them to be able to obey the messenger and understand the Qoraan.
Ilimtalibi,
“we have to obey the messenger”
I agree because the Qoraan says so, but where does it say in the Qoraan that we need hadeeth to obey the messenger? You have not proven this.
Where does the Qoraan command the companions to preserve the statements of the Prophet so that we are able to obey the messenger? You have not proven this.
Where does it say in the Qoraan that hadeeth form part of Islam? You have not shown evidence for this.
“it leaves many things for the prophet to explain and teach”
This is disputed. Firstly the Qoraan doesn’t say “explain”. It says “make clear”. “Make clear” can mean “explain” or it can mean “make manifest”. You have not proven that “make clear” means “explain” as opposed to “make manifest”. You have not proven that when the Qoraan uses the word “teach” it means more than simply imparting knowledge. You have not proven that “making clear” or “teaching” goes beyond the scope of delivering the Qoraan.
“those things are passed on under the name of ahadeeth”
Where does the Qoraan say this? You have not proven this. You have not proven that the Qoraan authorizes hadeeth.
“refute my points”
If I don’t refute your points, it does not prove that you are right. If you say it doesn’t prove your claim is wrong either, then either way your claim is meaningless because you have not proven your own claim.
Turning the table on all my points does not prove your claims to be true. The fact you cannot prove your claims either, shows they are meaningless. Turning the table is a good way to create distraction from proving your baseless claims.
Your claims lack substance and are baseless because you cannot prove them. When you turn the tables and make ad hominem criticisms it shows you are not serious in proving any of your claims, and are just trolling.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
You are totally locked. You are not answering any of my questions at all. You cannot answer even a single question nor can you refute any of them. It is not that you don’t show, it is that you cannot show any evidence that can defeat it. You cannot prove my claim to be false, you dont have any evidence that validates it’s false. Not from the Qoraan nor from historical aspect. And you cannot prove your own claim to be true. You can’t do a thing, but still you persist that I am wrong and that you are right, even though I am the one that can completely explain and prove his point of view, where you cannot do a thing.
If you say that I ” utterly failed ” to prove my claim from the Qoraan that ahadeeth are needed to understand the deen, then once again it’s VERY simple, I ask you, prove me that the Qoraan is enough to understand the deen, and with that, you should, logically, be able to answer all of my questions veyr simply with ayaat from the Qoraan.
Yes you must accept ahadeeth. Want prove from the Qoraan? Qoraan says in many ayaat obey the messenger, it tells that he teaches and explains and that there is an example in him for us. Very simple, this proves that we have to obey the messenger to understand the Qoraan, and to obey the messenger it is only logical that you have to accept his teachings and his words. Because the companions and their followers did also. This proves it, no matter how many times you ask, my answer will stay the same, this is the proof for it from the Qoraan, the fact that the Qoraan directs you to the messenger and leaves things to him. The fact that many important things cannot be found in the Qoraan explained.
And if you say no, you fail this does not prove it, then, answer my questions? It is that simple. But very hard for you, because you don’t have anything to hold on to.
Prove to me that the Qoraan is enough? How do I pray? Answer with the Qoraan. I thought the Qoraan was enough wasn’t it? That nothing else is needed, that there is no need to obey the messenger, and that there are no need for ahadeeth that everything is in the Qoraan, then answer? What is keeping you from it? Come with answers from only-Qoraan, why is that so hard?
Like I said again, those are standard qoraniyyoon tactics. It’s not like you yourself know what you believe in. You just look for a way out. Step 1. deny the prophets authorisation, say the qoraan is enough, but when you fail in proving that, then you attack the ahadeeth so step 2. ahadeeth cannot be trusted because they are written 200 years later, then when that is proven to be false and you cannot come with any counter proof, then you say that there is no proof from the qoraan that we have to accept those ahadeeth, so its step 3. Where does the qoraan say we have to accept hadeeth and that we need them to understand the qoraan. You are still stuck in this step, even though I’ve defeated you in every aspect and proven to you that the Qoraan is not enough on its own, you hold on to it. But the next step once you will understand that you are wrong, which you probably know but cannot accept is, step 4. You can live the deen the way you want and with that, denying everything and throwing everything away and just doing whatever you like according to your own lusts and desires. Like praying the way you want, fasting the way you want, eating and drinking whatever you want, dressing the way you want etc etc etc, because the Qoraan doesn’t give any answers to those things in detail it doesn’t explain them and many other things so Allah has left that for you to fill so you can do any way you want. It will probably go this way with you, because you just are too ignorant. Though, that you can understand and live the deen the way you want can easily be refuted from the Qoraan itself too. Which I actually have done so also in my first posts here.
So it’s simple, answer me, prove to me that the Qoraan is enough, you cannot do that, the Qoraan proves from itself that it isn’t enough, so, what are we to do? Did Allah send a incomplete deen, or has the Qoraan not been protected and it changed or things are missing, or is there another source we need to apply to, to understand the deen? Or is it none of them? Then what is it? Ignorance.. that is what it is.
Wallahi I swear on Allah you will never be able to come with any answers to any of my questions at all, you will never be able to prove to me from the Qoraan that it is enough and you will never be able to tell me how to pray from only Qoraan, with only ayaat, you’ll never be able to answer any of the questions I’ve asked you all on this page. You’ll choose to be blind and deaf to the things I say on purpose, you’ll never have certainty in your belief.
Your logic and everything are defeated here in this page, your point of view your way of thinking, your ” arguments ” everything, I haven’t left a single argument of you qoraniyyoon here in this discussion that I haven’t proven to be logically false and I have come with counter answers, which no of you have refuted nor can refute. You simply only can deny it without giving it too much thought, because giving it too much thought will make you doubt your belief. Not even answering a single question, but still having the face to say that I am the one in the wrong here and that I am the one that hasn’t proven anything and the one that couldn’t make any point at all and that I am the one defeated here, that is simply pathetic, to be able to say that.
Your belief is just like the house of a spider, just like Allah s.w.a. said in the Qoraan,
wa inna awhana albuyoeti labaytul ankaboet, law kanoe ya3lamoen
Ilimtalibi,
“You are not answering any of my questions at all.”
Your questions are pointless because they are irrelevant to proving YOUR claim. Even if I do not answer your questions it does not prove that we must accept hadeeth. This is a dirty trick you use to escape from proving your baseless claim. You are only fooling yourself.
“you cannot show any evidence that can defeat it.”
Even if I do not show evidence to defeat it, it does not prove your claim to be true. So it is completely irrelevant to ask me to show evidence. This is where you are fooling nobody with your dirty tricks. You want me to show evidence for YOUR baseless claim. Completely ridiculous! You are more interested in playing chess with me than to sincerely seek the truth. Still you cannot prove your claim from the Qoraan that we must accept hadeeth, and this is where you are defeated. You keep shifting discussion to worthless points instead of showing clear evidence from the Qoraan.
“nor from historical aspect”
Historical evidence can be disputed. Even from a historical perspective your claim is worthless because you have not provided the evidence you are relying on. Maybe the evidence is unreliable and weak. But you want people to believe it is “fact” because it suits you.
“I am the one that can completely explain and prove his point of view”
You have only explained your conjecture but you have not given clear evidence from the Qoraan to irrefutably prove your claim. You cannot even irrefutably prove that the Prophet explained the Qoraan. You cannot prove that the words in hadeeth were actually the words of the Prophet. You cannot prove that hadeeth are protected by Allah. And if you are going to ask me to prove the Qoraan is really from Allah, you are bringing up yet another irrelevant point because the whole discussion is on the basis that we both believe that the Qoraan is from Allah. So for the purpose of this discussion I do not need to prove that the Qoraan is from Allah. This is dirty tactic by you to avoid proving that hadeeth are really the words of the Prophet.
“prove me that the Qoraan is enough to understand the deen”
This is irrelevant to proving your claim that we need hadeeth. If the Qoraan does not say it is incomplete or that something else is needed to make it complete, then it is enough. Very simple. But you create conjecture without clear proof from the Qoraan.
“the Qoraan proves from itself that it isn’t enough”
This is a lie. Where does the Qoraan say that it isn’t enough?
“The fact that many important things cannot be found in the Qoraan explained.”
Where does the Qoraan say more detail and further explanation is required?
“Qoraan says in many ayaat obey the messenger”
This is not proof that we must accept hadeeth. You can’t even prove that hadeeth are the Prophet’s words.
“it tells that he teaches and explains and that there is an example in him for us.”
You cannot irrefutably prove that the Prophet explained the Qoraan. What is the Arabic root word for what you are translating as “explain”. You have not proven that “teach” means more than simply conveying knowledge WITHOUT explaining it. The Qoraan also tells us there is an example in Ibrahim. Show me the vast hadeeth collections of Ibrahim. None of your “evidence” proves that Allah authorizes hadeeth.
“Prove to me that the Qoraan is enough? How do I pray? Answer with the Qoraan. I thought the Qoraan was enough wasn’t it?”
This is another irrelevant point because it will not help you to prove we must accept hadeeth. If the Qoraan does not tell you how to pray, are you suggesting that you will not be able to pray to Allah? You shift the conversation many times away from proving your baseless claim.
“that there is no need to obey the messenger, and that there are no need for ahadeeth”
I never said not to obey the messenger. But you have no proof from the Qoraan that we must accept hadeeth to obey him. You can’t even prove that hadeeth are the Prophet’s words or that they are protected by Allah.
Hey Ruth Sweeney,
Sorry for my late reaction. Haven’t had the time to reply and I started to lose interest in this discussion, so this might be my last reaction to you, because it totally got out of control, it has lost it’s point and it’s clear that its pointless to discuss. Actually I feel sorry for my self that I’ve wasted around 2 hours for you today, to reply to you and, I hope Allah s.w.a. will forgive me wasting my time. I could’ve read some Qoraan and hadeeth instead of doing this pointless discussing.
” Your questions are pointless because they are irrelevant to proving YOUR claim. Even if I do not answer your questions it does not prove that we must accept hadeeth. This is a dirty trick you use to escape from proving your baseless claim. You are only fooling yourself. ”
Actually it is very clear from the start of this discussion who is using dirty tricks to escape from things who is fooling himself. Explain me what makes my points irrelevant if they are so.
” Even if I do not show evidence to defeat it, it does not prove your claim to be true. So it is completely irrelevant to ask me to show evidence. This is where you are fooling nobody with your dirty tricks. You want me to show evidence for YOUR baseless claim. Completely ridiculous! You are more interested in playing chess with me than to sincerely seek the truth. Still you cannot prove your claim from the Qoraan that we must accept hadeeth, and this is where you are defeated. You keep shifting discussion to worthless points instead of showing clear evidence from the Qoraan. ”
You are starting your diry tricks once again by trying to put all the weight to me, though yourself do not and cannot answer any of my questions nor prove them false. It is not that you do not show them, it is that you don’t have any answer to them. It’s not about ” defeating ” my arguments only, I have asked simple questions like if the Qoraan is enough then answer how to do this and that from the Qoraan, which you haven’t been able to answer too.
You are trying to make it look like I am the one here that is totally being pushed into a corner and then is trying to find a way out, though it’s the opposite here. I am asking very clear questions to you which you cannot answer at all, so you have started mind games and standard qoraniyyoon tricks to escape them and make it look like I am the one that is escaping. Nope, I don’t want you to show me evidence for my claim, it is actually you who is doing that the whole time, wanting me to prove things from your view. I am asking you to prove your own claim from the Qoraan, not mine, and you are asking me the whole time to prove my claim from your point of view from the Qoraan, now, what is ridiculous? Show me one single word of mine where I’ve asked you to prove MY claim from the Qoraan.
I can prove from the Qoraan that we must accept ahadeeth, and I have answered that many times now, I have provided you with an answer, go read it again. If you don’t find my answer satisfying or enough, then the problem lies by you and not by me. I have provided.
” Historical evidence can be disputed. Even from a historical perspective your claim is worthless because you have not provided the evidence you are relying on. Maybe the evidence is unreliable and weak. But you want people to believe it is “fact” because it suits you. ”
Yeah, historical evidence can be disputed, if you can prove it is not reliable. Qoraniyyoon is a historical thing too. Why don’t you dispute that then? The things I am telling you to accept are things widely known in the ummah. Oh, is the problem that I am not directing you to sources, then that is no problem, I can put all the sources here. But I doubt that is the problem. It is that you are focused on denying everything, and even if I’ll come with books written 1200-1300 years ago, you’ll say where in the Qoraan, and then say maybe it is weak. Then, if all those things are weak, then the Qoraan is weak too, because what makes those narrations strong are the narrators, whether they are reliable or not, and if you say none of them are reliable, that means, as Qoraan being a narration too, it’s weak also, because it has been narrated by those you call liars and weak.
You really have no idea at all what you are talking about. ” Maybe evidence is unreliable and weak ”, yeah maybe it is, but you say this without doing any research, you aren’t even interested in the truth whether it is reliable or not, it doesn’t even interest you if it would be strong and reliable, it is just that none of them fits your fabricated belief so you deny them no matter what.
So trying to change tides that it is funny. I am believing it is a fact because it suits me? Or is it the opposite, is it you that is denying them totally without even looking at them and doing research because it doesn’t suit your fabricated belief. That is the standard qoraniyyoon brains, when they cannot proof from the Qoraan and they are faced with historical facts, they totally deny them and ask the Qoraan doesn’t talk about those things so they attack it by saying it cannot be known whether they are strong or weak. Which is ridiculous, because then the same things applies to the Qoraan, but that they do not question and blindly take over.
” You have only explained your conjecture but you have not given clear evidence from the Qoraan to irrefutably prove your claim. You cannot even irrefutably prove that the Prophet explained the Qoraan. You cannot prove that the words in hadeeth were actually the words of the Prophet. You cannot prove that hadeeth are protected by Allah. And if you are going to ask me to prove the Qoraan is really from Allah, you are bringing up yet another irrelevant point because the whole discussion is on the basis that we both believe that the Qoraan is from Allah. So for the purpose of this discussion I do not need to prove that the Qoraan is from Allah. This is dirty tactic by you to avoid proving that hadeeth are really the words of the Prophet. ”
See, now who is expecting who to prove one others claim? It is clearly you. Asking me to prove my claim from your beliefs view, which is completely ridiculous, but despite that I’ve done so anyway by providing you answers. To say without anything to base it on they are simply conjecture is nonsense. I have explained them in the light of history and all the information that came from those that met the prophet. If you want sources, sure, but I know you’ll deny them also, so what is the point of that. It’s absurd to say I simply come with conjecture when it is you that is escaping all of my questions in connection to your belief, and it is you who is playing mind games the whole time by asking nonsense questions and looking for everything in the Qoraan, even things that happened after the Prophet a.s.w. died.
I have given irrefutable ayaat directly from the Qoraan and I take them along with the historical information. You don’t want to accept them, then fine. I am simply answering your questions, I cannot do more.
I cannot prove that the prophet explained the Qoraan? What a lie. I have done so in my first 2 replies here on this page, go read them. It is you who cannot prove from the Qoraan that the prophet cannot explain and did not explain. 1. You cannot prove it from the Qoraan 2. Nor can you prove it from historical view. 3. Nor can you answer any of the questions related to the Qoraan we’ve asked here. Everything points towards our belief, that the prophet indeed explained it, and it only makes sense he did. 1. Qoran ayaat 2. Ahadeeth of prophet 3. Historical events 4. The islamic understanding of those that came after the prophet.
Those ayaat are enough to prove it. We take them without applying the nonsense ” trinity-belief ” on them like you do. We simply take the ayaat the way they are and the way they were taken in the history. No where in the Qoraan did Allah mention obeying him without mentioning the Prophet. It is or together, obey Allah and his Messenger, or obey the Messenger alone. Not even one ayah says obey Allah alone, which proves how important it is to obey what the messenger commands, teaches, explains.
Surah 16:44
(We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.
Surah 16:64
And WE have not sent down to thee the Book except that thou mayest explain to them that concerning which they have created differences and as a guidance, and a mercy for a people who believe.
Surah 2:129
“Our Lord! send amongst them an Apostle of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them: For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise.”
Surah 2:151
A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge.
Surah 3:164
God did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them an apostle from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of God, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error.
Surah 62:2
It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-
Surah 7:157-158
“Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” day: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Apostle of God, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in God and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.”
Surah 2:129
Our Lord, and raise in their midst a messenger from among them who would recite for them your signs and teach them the book and the wisdom and sanctify them (or make them grow). You are the one mighty, the wise.
Surah 9:29
Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the Hereafter and do not hold unlawful what Allâh and His Messenger have made unlawful.
surah 33:36
No believer, neither man nor woman, has a right, when Allâh and His Messenger decide a matter, to have a choice in their matter in issue. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error.
Surah 4:65
But no, by your Lord, they shall not be (deemed to be) believers unless they accept you as judge in their disputes, then find in their hearts no adverse feeling against what you decided, but surrender to it in complete submission.
” You cannot prove that the words in hadeeth were actually the words of the Prophet.”
I cannot prove that the words in the hadeeth are prophets words? What is now the problem, that you find the Qoraan really to be enough or that you don’t believe ahadeeth are prophets words? No, it is that even if you’d know they are really his words, you’d still not accept them. It is not like it interests you whether they are reliable or not, you’d still deny them. Muhadditheen back then have proven they are the prophets words. It has a very deep science done by reliable people. And the fact the same things came through different channels proves it is reliable also. You cannot deny something that is passed on by many different channels that are reliable and what they’ve told is the same, if you say those people in the narration are liars, then the Qoraan cannot be trusted also. The method used to filter and accept ahadeeth is beyond anything ever done in this worlds history. The Qoraan and the ahadeeth both come from the same source. I won’t be surprised if you’ll ask me ” where does the Qoraan say this ”.
To say that I cannot prove ahadeeth are not the words of prophet. Well, here comes the bomb, you cannot even prove that the words in Qoraan were actaully words of the Prophet, the way he recited them, and nor can you prove that those came from Allah.
” You cannot prove that hadeeth are protected by Allah.”
Can you prove that the Qoraan is protected by Allah? Where does it say ” QORAN is protected ” ? Nopes, you cannot prove that. You cannot prove the Qoraan hasn’t been changed too, but I can prove you that it has been changed in some ways.
” And if you are going to ask me to prove the Qoraan is really from Allah, you are bringing up yet another irrelevant point because the whole discussion is on the basis that we both believe that the Qoraan is from Allah.”
Yet another attempt to escape from things. Nope, the whole discussion is not on the basis that we both believe that the Qoraan is from Allah. The whole discussion is based where the Qoraan and the ahadeeth came from and whether they are reliable. You deny the source that the Qoraan came from and say they cannot be trusted, they are liars have fabricated things. When it comes to historical information and ahadeeth you suddenly start caring about whether if its reliable or not, weak or not etc, acting like you care about information and try your ” best ” to get right information, but when it comes to the Qoraan it suddenly is not of importance anymore whether the source is reliable or not. You have double standards. The whole discussion is about you taking something which you cannot trace back to the prophet blindly, denying the source the Qoraan came from. The whole point of this discussion is you deny everything, every single information only because it doesn’t fit your OWN INTERPRETATION of the Qoraan without any evidence against those things. You don’t have a methodology at all.
It is you who is asking irrelevant questions all the time by expecting to find everything even after the prophets death in the Qoraan, well, it’s not like you really expect it, it is that you ask them because that is the only way you can prove yourself that you are ” right ”, because if something cannot be found in the Qoraan then you are right you believe, so you go on and ask for everything to be in the Qoraan even historical events after the prophets death, so you can escape questions.
”So for the purpose of this discussion I do not need to prove that the Qoraan is from Allah. This is dirty tactic by you to avoid proving that hadeeth are really the words of the Prophet.”
Oh yes you do need to prove where the Qoraan came from, what your source, your path to the Qoraan is. You are trying so hard to keep your position, which is the reason you are forcing this discussion to pointless points like this. By avoiding simple questions and asking nonsense questions. There is something called science of hadeeth (oesoel al-hadeeth) which is used to prove the ahadeeth saheeh or not. The problem is not them being from the prophet or not, the problem is you are slandering all those that came after the prophet, saying they are liars and fabricators. You don’t trust any of them, but you trust the book called Qoraan that comes from them. There is no doubt that ahadeeth are the prophets words or actions, and there is also no doubt the companions of the prophet passed them on. But you not being able to trace the Qoraan back to the prophet and thus cannot prove its really from him, you cannot even prove your ” only qoraan ” claim and you cannot even prove the Qoraan is complete and is all explained. You say so only because you think the Qoraan says it has explained everything, so even if you cannot find it and even if it isnt there it has to be fully explained, because Qoraan says so. You really lack sense.
”This is irrelevant to proving your claim that we need hadeeth. If the Qoraan does not say it is incomplete or that something else is needed to make it complete, then it is enough. Very simple. But you create conjecture without clear proof from the Qoraan.”
This is irrelevant proving your claim that we don’t need hadeeth, it is also irrelevant proving your claim that the Qoraan is enough. But ofcourse, when it comes to you, it doesn’t matter whether it’s irrelevant or not. Is it so hard to notice that I am using qoraniyyoon thoughts on you the whole time, when I apply those thought on your belief then you directly refute them and say they are irrelevant and it proves nothing, but when it comes to us then it suddenly becomes relevant and proves everything even without providing any answers. Funny. The Qoraan says the prophet is needed, it is very simple.
The Qoraan does not need to say it is incomplete, nor does it need to say it is complete. You are so narrow-minded that the only way you can think is that ” if the Qoraan is not enough, if the explanation of the prophet is needed then the Qoraan is ” incomplete ”. ”. That the prophet’s explanation is needed doesn’t mean the Qoraan is incomplete, the Qoraan is complete and it directs you to the prophet, it is complete with the prophet. Without the prophet, the Qoraan still is complete in its own form, but then the deen is not complete and cannot be understood right, many things will be left empty and cannot be answered with only from the Qoraan. It is simple, the Qoraan directs you to the prophet for the 5000th time. But the thing is, you narrow-minded people think Allah thinks like you, you think Allah does it the way you think, no, Allah does it the way he wants, like he did with his previous prophets, letting some of them die, allowing his message to be changed etc. And the way he did it with the Islaam is through the Qoraan and the Messenger, giving his messenger authorisation to explain and teach, make things halaal and haram, to rule, to command. The prophet was given the hikmah for that by Allah, he was given the right understanding of the Qoraan through Djibriel also, which was his teacher. You clowns go on yourself and try to understand things from the Qoraan, and you show the audacity to say this means that, this ayah is talking about this, the 7ukm/law about this is that, making laws out of the qoraan by yourself, and then you say the prophet couldnt? Sub7anAllah, what hypocrisy.. what arrogance.
This is getting so stupid. You act when it’s about us like everything has to be stated in the Qoraan literally, if it cannot be found then you have to deny it. But when it comes to your own points you start playing with the ayaat giving them your own interpretation, own meanings which are not stated in the Qoraan at all, then it doesn’t matter if it isn’t there literally or that if it isn’t there at all. Then nothing matter, nothing needs to be in the Qoraan. I have asked you tons of questions in my previous posts totally annihilating this logic, which you haven’t been able to refute, but you still go on in the same hypocrisy.
It is you who creates conjecture without clear proof from the Qoraan.
” This is a lie. Where does the Qoraan say that it isn’t enough? ”
You are lying not me. I didn’t say the Qoraan says it is not enough itself, it doesn’t have to state that too, for Qoraan to state that would not make sense, because then that would contradict the revelation method of the Qoraan, being 23 years in total and being revealed on events. The method of revelation, being slowly and being based on events that happened + happening through a messenger is proof that the Qoraan wasn’t meant to be taken the way qoraniyyoon take it. The qoraan is enough with its messenger, without him, indeed, it’s not enough, many things are not explained, I have proven that, you cannot explain any of it. The Qoraan was focused on creating a good society with the support of a prophet. I already have made those points clear in my previous posts. But you don’t have the capacity to understand this, you have proven that after discussing for a while now.
What I mean by saying it that the Qoraan proves itself it’s not enough is that, 1. The Qoraan’s structure/nature 2. The way it was revealed 3. The Qoraan’s method and 4. The Qoraan’s content, those things prove it is not enough. But like I said, you miss the honesty and capacity to understand this, you are too narrow minded. Nowhere does it state the Qoraan alone is enough. IF you refute those things I say, it is very simple, in my first post I have asked questions about things that are stated in the Qoraan but not explained, answer those with the Qoraan, if you cannot, how is that possible if everything was in Qoraan and nothing else was needed, how can Allah s.w.a. say we have to do things but not explain how to do them? How can Allah s.w.a. reveal ayaat which cannot be understood if not taken along with the historical event which those ayaat had been revealed on. How can Allah s.w.a. reveal different ayaat from different soeraat in different times when they were all needed to understand it? Did Allah send the prophet ayaat and then made him wait years to finally understand what Allah meant by that ayah, because some ayaat that were to be revealed years later were needed to understand that ayah? Allah s.w.a. Himself send u a book and a deen that depends on the prophet, historical events and humanity. He DID THIS, STARTING by REVEALING IT IN INCOMPLETE FORM SLOWLY to a HUMAN, and then HE DID THIS BY REVEALING THOSE AYAAT on EVENTS that HAPPENED in the LIFE TIME OF THAT PERSON, REVEALING AYAAT on some questions asked by his COMPANIONS and sometimes on THINGS that they DID or the unbelievers DID, and then HE DID THIS BY LEAVING THE WRITING and PASSING ON of the QORAAN to HUMANITY, HE DID THIS BY LEAVING things EMPTY, NOT ANSWERED. HE DID THIS BY REVEALING AYAAT WHICH WE SIMPLY CANNOT UNDERSTAND. Everything is against your standpoint. He does it the way He wants, and we take things the way they happened. But you say Allah did it the way we think, we want.
” Where does the Qoraan say more detail and further explanation is required?”
Where does the Qoraan answer and explain everything? Qoraan says ask the prophet, ask the ones that have knowledge, Qoraan says obey, Qoraan says take the prophet as an example, The Qoraan says hte prophet explains and teaches, the Qoraan has mutaashabih ayaat which are not clear and need explanation and I can go on. But wait, it was all very clear and very easy to understand, it was all there wasn’t it? Then where are the answers to the very simple questions? Does the Qoraan contradict itself by saying it is very clear and it explains everything? Or do you qoraniyyoon take those ayaat in the wrong meaning according to your own thoughts?
It’s very simple. There are two types of ayaat. Type 1 are ayaat that talk about simply realities, events, ayaat that tell the historical events about the other prophets, things in the paradise and in hell, the creation of heavens and humanity and earth etc, things like this, that talk about HAQQ and BAATIL, DISTINGIUSH THEM CLEARLY by giving simple realities, explaining haqq and baatil, examples from the other prophets life, talking about the creation of heavens and earth, and the signs that prove the existance of Allah s.w.a. and being one, those ayaat clearly distinguish haqq from baatil and makes it clear Allah is one and he is the creator, which are indeed easy to understand, anyone can benefit from those ayaat, even the most undereducated can get something from it, though someone with more knowledge and better capacity can understand them differently and benefit from them way more, but anyone can learn some life lessons from them, then can give them a thought and find Allah. But we are not discussing about those ayaat. Those ayaat are indeed self explaining, not needing to be explained, because they are not talking about things that need to be explained at all, they are simply about the truth and the false, about finding Allah s.w.a., accepting him as ONE and believing in Him. The easiness of understanding it clearly APPLY on those AYAAT. But to say the meaning also extends to all other ayaat about the shariah, legal rules etc makes in no way sense, because the Qoraan gives the messenger the function to teach and explain. The ayaat that say this, are prove that the book needs the messenger to teach and explain those things, it needs a messenger to interpret those things. The Qoraan says that that some things in it can only be understood by those that are learned also(29:43) and it also says that there always has to be a group thats left behind that learns the deep knowledge of the religion.
We are here discussing about the second type of ayaat, which are about the shariah of Islaam, about provisions of the islamic law etc and things like those. Those are the things explained by the prophet, things that are in connection to our life, deeds, worshipping etc. The clearness of the Qoraan, distinguishing haqq from baatil does in no way limit the authorisation of the prophet, it in no way excludes the necessity of the prophet explaining the laws of the deen and practical deeds, giving his companions naseehah and warning them about things. This alone proves the Qoraan is not to be understood the way qoraniyyoon do, if it does, very simple, once again, answer the questions I’ve asked from the Qoraan only, with no interpretations and explanations or whatever, only ayaat, because you say Qoraan is enough it explains itself nothing else is needed it’s all very clear and easy.
”This is not proof that we must accept hadeeth. You can’t even prove that hadeeth are the Prophet’s words.”
Ofcourse it is proof we need to accept what the messenger teached his companions. How are you going to obey the messenger otherwise, with the Qoraan? Where does the Qoraan say that obeying messenger is by accepting the message of the Qoraan? Bam, qoraniyyoon brains, ”point refuted, this is not proof we must accept your view. ”
I have told you many times now, the Qoraan, historical events and information, the ahadeeth passed on by the companions, the islamic way of life back then, everything is against your belief. They all support the opposite belief. And its not like we take those information because it’s in the advantage of our belief, ofcourse not, those things are what shapes our deen.
1. The Qoraan. 2. Words of prophet passed on by the companions 3. The companions way of the deen 4. Historical events.
You say this is a conjecture, but you cannot prove that. I say your nonsense is conjecture, and I have proven that, by proving that nothing in the Qoraan refutes ahadeeth, nothing in the Qoraan limits the revelation to only Qoraan, nothing in the Qoraan limits the authorisation to only Qoraan, nothing in the Qoraan limits the source to only the Qoraan, it’s the opposite, the Qoraan directs us to the prophet, the Qoraan says that there always has to be a group of people that have to stay back always so they can learn the deen deeply, the Qoraan says some things only the learned can understand, the Qoraans NATURE directs us to sources besides QORAAN by being revealed based on events in the time of the prophet to a prophet, the Qoraan directs us to other sources by not explaining many things it commands us to do, the Qoraan gives the prophet authorisation to teach and explain and purify and to rule, set rules, make things halal or haram.
I don’t believe you are honest, but if you really would’ve wanted to know why we believe ahadeeth are words of the Prophet a.s.w., you’d go to a muhaddith or someone with knowledge and ask him to explain it to you, the way it works. But that’s not your intention. You don’t even believe you need to know, you simply refute them. But if you are interested, I can direct you to someone. And don’t forget, the Qoraan has been passed on the same way, except on a bigger scale, , but by the same people. And, there are many different versions of the Qoraan too, which you probably won’t accept, but there was and there still is. It is just uthman r.a. decided in the end on which letter and dialect it should’ve been read, and from then on it has been written on one letter generally, though take away the harakaat and dots, let’s see how far you’ll come then and what of the Qoraan you know is left. (The oldest Qoraan we have doesnt have any harakaat or dots, and is open to be read on many different letters, which means different meanings, you cannot prove to me from the Qoraan on which letter it was supposed to be read) Then come and talk with me whether the Qoraan is preserved the way you believe it to be, only by Allah, or that Allah s.w.a. has protected it by creating good societies and people, entrusting it to them. Go do that, then come and talk with me, and lets then see how much you depend on humanity. In every way you depend on humanity, nothing you have is directly from Allah, it is the sunnah of Allah s.w.a., he wanted it to do like this, through humanity, we are all dependent on those that came before us, and especially dependent on the companions, and just to take the Qoraan from them because you want to believe in something but refute the rest of the things they passed on, that is just absurd and hypocrisy, that is doing things without any knowledge and evidence, that is doing things according to your own desires. You cannot deny something that has been passed on my thousands which cannot be imagined that they all come together and lied about it. All being in different places, yet they all lived according to the sunnah of the prophet and accepted ahadeeth as evidence in the deen. Not even the lost sects totally refuted ahadeeth. Not even a single sect existed back then that refuted ahadeeth completely, this is a proof which can not be refuted also.
” You cannot irrefutably prove that the Prophet explained the Qoraan. What is the Arabic root word for what you are translating as “explain”. You have not proven that “teach” means more than simply conveying knowledge WITHOUT explaining it. The Qoraan also tells us there is an example in Ibrahim. Show me the vast hadeeth collections of Ibrahim. None of your “evidence” proves that Allah authorizes hadeeth. ”
I see you’ve added a new word to your discussion way, ” irrefutably ”, that is a sign that I’ve been able to refute all of your points and that I’ve given answers to them all, but you don’t find them enough, it doesn’t satisfy you because it is not in your favorite, but at the same time you cannot refute them yourself also, but you still choose to believe that they are irrefutably.
So we are going to talk about arabic now. You are actually clearly showing your problem here, you show the game you play here. Again trying to make it look like it is me who is playing with the words meaning, giving it a meaning it doesn’t have, saying I have to do it without explaining, though it is clearly you qoraniyyoon doing it. Read the article on this page which shows you the meaning of bayyana.
You come and now act like the meaning of teaching means to ” simply convey knowledge ”, you give it that meaning your self, and then come and say to me that I give teaching another meaning with explaining it, though, it is you qoraniyyoon who do it and say ” teaching CAN ALSO mean to simply convey ”, you are leaving the words original meaning and are looking for another meaning of it which supports your claim, and with that proving you are giving it another meaning than it’s original meaning.
I don’t have to prove that ” bayana ” means more than ” simply conveying ” it, I cannot add a meaning to a word it simply doesn’t have and isnt used with. I am not adding anything nor explaining it, I am taking the word as it is, with the first thought it arises, and with it’s first meaning, the most common meaning it is often used. The brother that wrote this article already proved that. You though, come and try to explain to tubayyina there means something different than explaining it, you come and try to explain it doesn’t mean explain in the normal way, but that it’s simply conveying the message and nothing more. It is you who has to explain why Allah s.w.a. has used different words for the same meaning, though they are different from the roots. Bayyana means explaining, making it clear. The original articles clearly makes that clear also. It is you who has to come with that it simply means conveying, and if it means that, why did Allah s.w.a. use another word instead of a word that would make that very clear. I asked this question earlier, what is your proof that bayyana means something else than it’s common use there, another one of you logicless guys said ” it can ”, what is the proof that it can mean that there, what is the proof for that in the Qoraan? What decides which meaning a word should have? Where does the Qoraan say it has to be understood that way? Lets do it your way, lets expect the arabic language and its meanings to be explained in the Qoraan too.
Does explain and teach in your language mean ” simply conveying knowledge ”? IF you say that, then you really should go back to primary education. There your teaches will help you understand what teaching and explaining mean, by giving you books and teaching and explaining them to you. Yeah, he’ll simply convey what has been teached to him, by teaching the books meaning to you and explaining what needs explanation, that is simply conveying knowledge too, isnt it? Oh wait no, teaching means simply conveying knowledge, so your teacher will probably only read the books for you, thats it.
Now you are back to your claim that Qoraan doesn’t need explanation and that the prophet didn’t have authorisation to do that, though you cannot prove anywhere in the Qoraan directly and literally that he didn’t have authorisation, its the opposite, the Qoraan says we have to obey, that he teaches, explains, purifies, rules, but yeah, the normal meanings of those are not in your favor so you apply trinity-belief on them or you try to play with the words meanings without anything to support it on. But now you are back to simply playing with words, interpretation ayaat to your own will, where earlier you clowns were saying the Qoraan is enough nothing else is needed, no explanation no interpretation. But when we only take the ayaat in the most common sense and meaning then it’s not in your favor, so you’ve once again started to add things to the Qoraan’s meaning that are not in the Qoraan, and with this contradicting your own fabricated theory.
Is it simple, I have been repeating this forever now but you have been ignoring it because you don’t have any other solution to it except ignoring, I even started my first post with those questions I’ve been asking like forever, IF THE QORAAN IS ENOUGH THEN EXPLAIN THOSE THINGS I have been saying for ever now. If you cannot do that, if the Qoraan doesn’t answer the things it’s commanding you to do, which it doesn’t and which you never will and can answer, then that alone is enough to prove how weak your belief is and that the qoraan is not fully explained and not complete according to your belief.
I am not the one word-playing here with things like obey messenger = obey qoran = obey allah, reciting = teaching = explaining = purifying etc. I am simply taking them the way they are and then look at how they did it in the time of the prophet. And to say that information cannot be trusted, it is very simple, for the 10000th time, then the Qoraan cannot be trusted also, it is so simple.
I guess you are playing your last trump cards, taking another ayah out of context about Ibrahim a.s. The example of ibrahim a.s. we can take is directly explained in the same ayah, the example is directly given.
The original ayah,
60:4
You have had an excellent example in Abraham and those with him; when they said to their people, “We are quit of you, and what you worship apart from God. We denounce you. Enmity and hatred has surfaced between us and you, forever, until you believe in God alone.” Except for the words of Abraham to his father, “I will ask forgiveness for you, though I have no power from God to do anything for you.” “Our Lord, in You we trust, and to You we repent, and to You is the ultimate resort.
It is clear that you are taking thing out of their meaning, trying it to give it another meaning, and with that attacking ahadeeth of the prophet because we say we have to take the prophet as an example, though his EXAMPLE isn’t explained in the Qoraan, he was an example alive, a role model, where, in this ayah, Allah s.w.a. is talking about an example of Ibrahim a.s. and his followers, died long ago, which sharia ended, which was been sent to another qawm, and then following with WHEN THEY HAD SAID, and then telling what that excellent example is. Haha. And this aside, there is nothing in the Qoraan that says we have to obey Ibrahim a.s., when a new prophet comes, the old ones sharia ends, the prophet sent to us was Muhammad a.s.w., he is our prophet, the one that we have to obey and follow, and not Ibrahim a.s. See, this alone shows how narrow-minded you are and how much knowledge and logic you lack. To think the example in this ayah is the same as the example of our prophet, which isn’t explained in the Qoraan, the opposite, where it is directed to him alive, if it is, SHOW ME THOSE EXAMPLES. What you say doesn’t make any sense and if something is irrelevant this question of yours is.
”This is another irrelevant point because it will not help you to prove we must accept hadeeth. If the Qoraan does not tell you how to pray, are you suggesting that you will not be able to pray to Allah? You shift the conversation many times away from proving your baseless claim.”
See, I said this earlier. You are totally denying your OWN BELIEF and unlogical baseless methodology now, you are totally contradicting your own belief, you are totally refuting it now.
I am asking you it ONCE AGAIN, the Qoraan says pray, it gives us some times to pray, where does it explain how to pray? Wasnt it all explained? Wasnt it all clear? Wasnt it all there? Wasnt it all complete? Now you are DENYING the SALAAH needs explanation, and are denying that salaah has a certain form, and deny that is has a way to do it, though Qoraan confirms that is has a certain form and just simply come and say just to be able to deny my point and to escape from the reality and to think you are right you come and say you can pray without knowing how to pray. How absurd and what a bullshit, its ridiculous. Yeah i am suggesting that you cannot pray if you dont know how to, you cannot do salaah without knowing how to, and if the book explained everything, it has to be in there. If you can, tell me how do you pray (salaah), and then you have to tell me where in the Qoraan it states that you have to pray like that! Because it’s you who claims it has to be in the Qoraan. And by praying I mean SALAAH, so dont come here and do word playing like reading Qoraan and doing dua and this and that is praying too and bla, no, we are talking about salaah, we are talking about Allah s.w.a. wanting us to do it everyday on certain times in a certain form, and the salaah that he wants us to do every friday when we are called to the mosquee all together, the salaah he wants us to do all together, the salaah we have to do, go together to ruku with those that do, WHERE IS THAT SALAAH EXPLAINED? see, I said this earlier, it will whether end up with you accepting defeat or you’ll start talking nonsense and go even further with even denying salaah and all, like it doesnt matter how you pray, you can pray the way you want and bla, totally contradicting your own belief and totally contradicting the Qoraan too. Just like other lost ones, once they lose, they just deny it completely and say it doesnt matter, because if the Qoraan didnt explain it it means you can do it any way you want, though that contradicts Qoraan and that also contradicts the fully explained and complete theory. Your likes even say you can pray naked any way you want, whenever you want, wherever you want. But I said this earlier, just for the sole purpose to discuss and make yourself belief you are right you’ll totally leave common sense and logic and even the Qoraan when its needed only to ” prove ” your own claims. This what I ask is irrelevant? You make it sound like I started to come up with those questions after you ” defeated ” me, you must be delusional, as I am the one that STARTED the discussion in my first post with those questions, and I always continued to ask them, it has been you the clown that kept comming up with unrealistic made up nonsense absurd claims to shift the conversation away and ignore everything, like where is this in the Qoraan and where is that in the Qoraan about the most irrelevant things, and when I do that about relevant things like prayer etc my questions are irrelevant and I shift the conversation away, though I simply ask questions about things mentioned in the Qoraan? I knew you were this kind of person, delusional, ignorant, a liar without any knowledge. But your mask has been unrevealed, as you confirmed my point I have said earlier in one of my previous posts, qoraniyyoon cannot accept defeat, they’ll ever go as fas as denying every single thing that Allah s.w.a. has commanded us to do and give it their own made up fabricated interpretation, saying it doesnt matter. Lol. Ofcourse you will say my points are irrelevant, because it totally destroys your claim that the Qoraan is enough and doesn’t need explanation, where you the hypocrit come and show the audacity to explain the Qoraan when you are the one taking that right away from everyone, even the prophet, except yourself, you can explain and interpretate, but the prophet? That is only a DHL-dude, even lower than you are, isnt it? Those questions of mine are the key to the truth and the prove that the Qoraan doesn’t explain everything and that it leaves many things open for question marks! So ofcourse it will be irrelevant for you because this one simple, one of the MOST SIMPLE questions you cannot answer it, find it in the Qoraan, this question reveals your real face, your real intention, of having no belief in the deen at all, just wanting to do things to your own liking, because somewhere in your heart you believe in a creator so you cannot fully deny, when it doesnt come out good, denying it parts of it, saying it doesnt matter, as long as you do something in the way you want, then those things suddenly mean something else than what is written in the qoraan and it doesnt matter and bla. Leaving nothing, destroying the deen totally. Another very simple question, what is the friday prayer, when to go which time, and what to do there, how to pray? Do you go?
So, I am the one that is shifting the conversation many times away from proving my baseless claim? And to say they are baseless? You are delusional. If you haven’t noticed my whole argument, my whole discussion is based on those questions, I even STARTED my first post with them, and your whole downfall is based on those questions too, I am the one that has kept to the same points from the start on, it was you who kept trying to come with hard-try unlogical nonsense questions, and you still hold on to it. My questions totally annihilate your lies in everyway possible, the moment I asked those questions it was the end. You never will be come with something solid and logical. How funny it is to say I’ve been shifting the conversation many times, when it was you who everytime ignored all my questions and answered nothing and just tried to find a way out of it by asking absurd questions. I just returned those absurd questions to you, but they then suddenly became irrelevant because those same questions are then directed at you, and everything that”s directed at you is irrelevant except your own thought. And BASELESS? One can only laugh at this. I base them on the Qoraan, historical information about the prophet and the companions life, ahadeeth, scholars who’ve learned the deen from the companions. From books of those people who have written it down. If you want sources, that is the easiest part. But you cannot even refute my point from the Qoran, you cannot prove your own argument from the Qoraan, it is proven that you lost ones are just interpretating it that way and that in reality the Qoraan doesn’t say those things, doesn’t even come near of it, nor its words, nor its nature.
Now you, what do you base things on? I have proven in my previous posts that you all are taking ayaat out of context and giving them your own interpretation, but in truth those ayaat in no way refute ahadeeth nor do they limit the prophets authorisation to only reciting it. Nor does the nature of the Qoraan. I have given you so many points you should give a thought, but you cannot, that will endanger your fabricated absurd belief.
To say I am shifting the discussion to worthless points? I know what makes them worthless, them totally annihilating every lie and nonsense you talk about ofcourse will make them worthless. Everything that talks against your belief is worthless. I have been talking about what we are discussing the whole time, where you only ignored everything, though everything I said is only and ONLY according to COMMON SENSE, if you say they are not, THEN REFUTE THEM WITH COMMON SENSE AND SHOW WHAT MAKES MY ARGUMENTS WORTHLESS AND UNVALID! For them to be unvalid and worthless there’d be only one way, and that would be if you would’ve gotten the Qoraan directly from Allah, but you haven’t. Ofcourse I will ask questions, because those questions unmask you, they show your lies.
” I never said not to obey the messenger. But you have no proof from the Qoraan that we must accept hadeeth to obey him. You can’t even prove that hadeeth are the Prophet’s words or that they are protected by Allah. ”
You are still stuck there. You say not to obey the messenger, dont try to talk around it. And you dont obey him. If you obey him, how do you obey him? This ayah can only mean 2 things, 1. Directly obey the messenger when he was alive, this would mean only the companions could do this, and so when the prophet died those ayaat were not in effect anymore, which’d mean those ayaat are useless there in the Qoraan 2. Obey the messenger through what his companions passed on to us. You have no proof from the Qoraan that obeying him is only obeying Qoraan. Because the Qoraan leaves many things open for the millionth time, and it directs us to the prophet many times, it says he teaches and explains and purifies, it leaves many things for him to explain, it says we have to accept his ruling, you don’t even know how to pray, your very simple and clear and complete all explained translated book doesn’t even explain this. Where I have shown you MANY VALID points that obeying him is MORE THAN THE QORAAN. AGAIN, IF THAT IS NOT SO, EXPLAIN HOW TO PRAY FROM THE QORAAN AND EXPLAIN WHY QORAAN HASN’T EXPLAINED THEM IN DETAIL.
And your last sentence, I have already answered that. You have nothing to prove that this book came from a prophet, where I have every source and evidence and methodology to base my belief on. I come from somewhere, I have a source I get my information from, that you say that they can be weak doesn’t make them weak in any way, and you? You don’t. You don’t even have a source about where the Qoraan came from. For ahadeeth we have the science of ahadeeth, we have our historians, and I have asked you a question, is the Qoraan the deen? I know you cannot say YES it is the deen, because the Qoraan is not the deen, it is the book of it which is open to many different understandings. Where does allah say the Qoraan has been protected? It doesn’t say that. It says dhikr, now, what is your prove that dhikr means only Qoraan? And what is your proof that that ayah hasn’t been add on later? Allah s.w.a. couldve easily said we will protect the Qoraan, and there would’ve been no questions left no discussions. Is it imaginable that Allah s.w.a. will only protect it’s book but not the right understanding of it, which we call the deen. So Allah protected the book, but the deen he completed is lost? If you say so, then there is not much left to discuss. And then, what is your proof that the book has been protected. You come with ayaat from the book, but that is not valid, first you have to prove that book is indeed as it came out of the mouth of the prophet.
But if you really think you have defeated my belief, then you really need to go back to primary education and start learning by the alphabet.
Like I said, I lost interest in this, because I dont find any honesty in you, you are just being very ignorant. I believe I’ve provided enough answers and that I’ve made enough valid points to refute you totally, which you haven’t been able to refute and give logical explanations of things, nor have you been able to answer any of my questions, not even the simple ones. The one thing I respect about you though is, that you don’t come like other hypocrit qoraniyyoon and use historical information and ahadeeth against us to strenghten their own claim, you hold vast to your own Qoraan only believe, I don’t respect that view of yours, but I just respect that you hold firmly to it, not showing hypocrisy in that by using things you refute as evidence and facts. That shows you are honest in your Qoraan only belief, though you are wrong, your belief is wrong, and you contradict your own logic and methodology, and many of your arguments are false, your methodology and logic is also. But you are just focused on rejecting hadeeth without any evidence, without having knowledge about it, you might be honest in your qoraan only belief, but you are not honest in finding the truth, that you have shown. You are very persistant and ignorant, and do everything to defend your point, even leaving common sense, logic, reality etc, where I simply come with historical facts and information and Qoraan ayaat, which I simply take it in the way they are normally understood, and I just simply reply to you with your own methodology and logic, I just do what you do to ahadeeth without thinking to the Qoraan, and you see, the qoraan doesn’t survive it also, because that methodology is flawed in many ways. To take Qoraan but totally reject ahadeeth is not realistic, it is totally denying reality, because ten thousands have passed this on. They may have divided into sects, some may have been lost, but they all had one thing in common, and that is that they knew and accepted ahadeeth as evidence in the deen, that the messenger explained and teached the deen, the companions lived according to the Qoran and the sunnah, it was in their life, and they passed it on, both in verbal ways and practical ways. Its nonsense to say that because the Qoraan doesnt say literally accept the ahadeeth of the prophet to refute them, the Qoraan says obey him, accept waht he gives you, he gave us the teaching and explaining of the Qoraan, he showed his companions how to do what, told them. If you refute this, then you have to refute that Qoraan was written in the time of our prophet also, because qoraan doesn’t say write it down and follow what is written. No, it only says follow the messenger and what he recites, which means that only those alive could follow the message then.
Peace.
Hey ilimtalibi,
“Explain me what makes my points irrelevant if they are so.”
I have already explained, but you wish to ignore it. You are avoiding to prove your baseless claim with clear evidence from the Qoraan. It is understandable why you are doing this. It is because you do not have any clear evidence from the Qoraan. It is as simple as that. And just like Satan, you need to create a diversion. Turning the tables does not prove you are right. Writing longer replies does not mean you are right.
“You are starting your dirty tricks once again by trying to put all the weight to me, though yourself do not and cannot answer any of my questions nor prove them false.”
I’m glad you have highlighted this because the truth is that ALL the burden is on YOU to prove a claim that YOU have made. There is no burden on me to prove your claim is false. If someone accuses you of rape, and you cannot prove that you did not rape the person, does that prove you raped them? Of course not, but this is the illogical stance you are taking. The person who takes you to court needs to prove that you raped. It is completely irrelevant for me to prove you are wrong. I do not need to answer any of your questions because they are irrelevant to proving YOUR claim. The total responsibility is on YOU to prove YOUR claim is true. And you have failed miserably in proving your claim.
“nothing in the Qoraan refutes ahadeeth, nothing in the Qoraan limits the revelation to only Qoraan, nothing in the Qoraan limits the authorisation to only Qoraan, nothing in the Qoraan limits the source to only the Qoraan”
The other illogical stance you take is that if the Qoraan does not say that hadeeth are not allowed, then hadeeth are allowed. So if the Qoraan does not say that the Book of Mormons is not allowed, does this mean it is allowed? Of course not. Another example of your flawed logic is that there is nothing wrong with punching a man if he has not prohibited you from punching him.
“It is not that you do not show them, it is that you don’t have any answer to them.”
It does not matter one bit if I answer your questions or not because they are irrelevant to you proving your baseless claim. You are using a diversion tactic to avoid proving your baseless claim. This is very clear and you are not fooling anybody except yourself. All the responsibility about your claim is on you, not me. You wish to ignore that if I do no not answer your questions then this does not prove your claim to be true.
“I am asking you to prove your own claim from the Qoraan”
So you want to mix two different discussions together? This is a great way to distract from you proving your claim about hadeeth. Hadeeth have not been authorized by Allah. Very simple.
“I can prove from the Qoraan that we must accept ahadeeth, and I have answered that many times now”
No you haven’t proven it. You cannot even produce one verse that we must accept hadeeth. I have read your answer. Whatever answer you gave, I have already shown it to be inadequate.
“If you don’t find my answer satisfying or enough, then the problem lies by you and not by me.”
Your answer is just conjecture, so the problem lies with you, not with me. Your whole reply fails miserably in diverting attention away from you proving a claim that you have made.
“I have given irrefutable ayaat directly from the Qoraan”
You have not given even one ayat that authorized hadeeth.
“I cannot prove that the prophet explained the Qoraan?”
No, you cannot irrefutably prove it.
“What is now the problem, that you find the Qoraan really to be enough or that you don’t believe ahadeeth are prophets words?”
Either way, you and Muhadditheen cannot irrefutably prove with certainty that the words in hadeeth were actually the words of the Prophet. How do you judge who is a “reliable” person? “Hadeeth science” is not a science. How do you know the isnad has not been fabricated?
“The Qoraan and the ahadeeth both come from the same source.”
You have not proven this.
“you cannot even prove that the words in Qoraan were actually words of the Prophet, the way he recited them, and nor can you prove that those came from Allah.”
For the purpose of this discussion, I do not need to because the whole discussion is on the basis that we both believe that the Qoraan is from Allah. This is one of your dirty diversion tactics.
“Can you prove that the Qoraan is protected by Allah?“
This is one of your ways to distract from your inability to prove that hadeeth are protected by Allah.
“The whole discussion is based where the Qoraan and the ahadeeth came from and whether they are reliable. You deny the source that the Qoraan came from and say they cannot be trusted, they are liars have fabricated things.”
You cannot prove that the Qoraan came from the companions. You cannot even prove that hadeeth came from the companions.
“you go on and ask for everything to be in the Qoraan even historical events after the prophets death, so you can escape questions.”
Only what the Qoraan says is important, and it does not authorize hadeeth. Very simple. But you want to defend baseless hadeeth.
“There is something called science of hadeeth (oesoel al-hadeeth) which is used to prove the ahadeeth saheeh or not.”
First of all, you cannot prove Allah authorized hadeeth. And now you are talking about “science of hadeeth” which Allah also did not authorize.
“The problem is not them being from the prophet or not, the problem is you are slandering all those that came after the prophet, saying they are liars and fabricators. You don’t trust any of them, but you trust the book called Qoraan that comes from them.”
Where does the Qoraan say it comes from companions?
“There is no doubt that ahadeeth are the prophets words or actions, and there is also no doubt the companions of the prophet passed them on.”
Yes, there is doubt!
“But you not being able to trace the Qoraan back to the prophet and thus cannot prove its really from him”
This is irrelevant to this discussion and a way for you to avoid proving hadeeth are really from him.
“giving his messenger authorisation to explain and teach, make things halaal and haram, to rule, to command.”
Where does it say in the Qoraan that the prophet can make things halaal and haram?
“You act when it’s about us like everything has to be stated in the Qoraan literally”
Yes, it’s as simple as that. The Qoraan is a clear book, as you already know.
“I have asked you tons of questions in my previous posts totally annihilating this logic, which you haven’t been able to refute, but you still go on in the same hypocrisy.”
Your questions are irrelevant to proving your claim about hadeeth.
“many things are not explained, I have proven that, you cannot explain any of it.”
Where does the Qoraan say many things are not explained? You haven’t proven it. Just asking questions doesn’t prove it.
“Nowhere does it state the Qoraan alone is enough.”
It doesn’t need to. If it doesn’t say it isn’t enough then it’s enough. You are only playing mind games with yourself.
“I have asked questions about things that are stated in the Qoraan but not explained”
You are making a wrong assumption as usual. Where does the Qoraan say those things needs explaining? You are making things up.
“Where does the Qoraan answer and explain everything?”
In the Qoraan of course. If you stop wasting time reading baselesss hadeeth and really study the Qoraan you will find every thing explained in as much detail as it needs to be explained. It’s very simple. You have been misguided by “scholars”. I hope one day in this life you realize that, sooner rather than later.
“the Qoraan has mutaashabih ayaat which are not clear and need explanation”
Where does the Qoraan say mutaashabih ayaat need explaining? I suggest you read 3:7 again.
“But to say the meaning also extends to all other ayaat about the shariah, legal rules etc makes in no way sense, because the Qoraan gives the messenger the function to teach and explain.”
Are you suggesting that the Qoraan does not give legal rules?
“The Qoraan says that that some things in it can only be understood by those that are learned also (29:43)”
You are twisting the meaning of the verse. When you study the Qoraan, you gain knowledge. You twist the meaning of verse to justify hadeeth when the Qoraan does not clearly authorize them.
“it also says that there always has to be a group thats left behind that learns the deep knowledge of the religion.”
Which verse says this?
“We are here discussing about the second type of ayaat, which are about the shariah of Islaam, about provisions of the islamic law etc and things like those. Those are the things explained by the prophet, things that are in connection to our life, deeds, worshipping etc. The clearness of the Qoraan, distinguishing haqq from baatil does in no way limit the authorisation of the prophet, it in no way excludes the necessity of the prophet explaining the laws of the deen and practical deeds, giving his companions naseehah and warning them about things.”
The Qoraan does not give the Prophet authorization to give laws not contained in the Qoraan. Why are you ignoring that the Qoraan says it is explained in detail? 6:114
“Of course it is proof we need to accept what the messenger teached his companions.”
The Qoraan does not say he taught his companions something other than Qoraan or that he gave an explanation of the Qoraan. This is something you have not irrefutably proved.
“How are you going to obey the messenger otherwise, with the Qoraan? Where does the Qoraan say that obeying messenger is by accepting the message of the Qoraan?”
Yes with Qoraan. It’s very simple. In which book does it say to obey the messenger? The Qoraan. Does it refer to another source to obey the messenger? No. Another point is that the process of hadeeth collection was not authorized in the Qoraan. As you know, the Qoraan is a book of guidance and if hadeeth were part of Islam, Allah would have clearly said so TO GUIDE US. You use perverted and flawed logic to try and justify your lie.
“I have told you many times now, the Qoraan, historical events and information, the ahadeeth passed on by the companions, the islamic way of life back then, everything is against your belief.”
Where does the Qoraan say to take historical events and information AFTER the revelation of the Qoraan as part of deen? You are adding things to deen not authorized by Allah.
“They all support the opposite belief. And its not like we take those information because it’s in the advantage of our belief, ofcourse not, those things are what shapes our deen.”
Where does the Qoraan say they shape our deen. You are making things up. The Qoraan is a book of guidance, yet you do not believe it is complete guidance when Allah has not said it is incomplete guidance. You are playing a dirty and devilish game.
“You say this is a conjecture, but you cannot prove that.”
When someone talks conjecture, it is for them to prove it is not conjecture, not me. You are only playing games and fooling yourself.
“the Qoraan says that there always has to be a group of people that have to stay back always so they can learn the deen deeply”
Which verse?
“the Qoraan gives the prophet authorisation to teach and explain and purify and to rule, set rules, make things halal or haram.“
You have not proven that the Prophet was authorised to set rules and, make things halal or haram except what is in the Qoraan.
“the Qoraan directs us to other sources by not explaining many things it commands us to do”
That is not directing to other sources. You are using flawed logic. In fact all your arguments are based on flawed logic. It shows your high level of delusion.
“you’d go to a muhaddith or someone with knowledge and ask him to explain it to you”
Muhaddiths have no place in Islam. They are not authorized in the Qoraan. Should I go to a crystal ball reader too? Maybe they can provide me with guidance you claim the Qoraan does not provide.
“lets then see how much you depend on humanity.”
I don’t depend on humanity for the Qoraan. I only depend on Allah for it. Isn’t Allah enough for you? Where does the Qoraan say to give importance to how the Qoraan came in our hands? What is important is that Allah gave the Qoraan to me for guidance. It is not necessarily that the companions are liars, but you are not discussing the people who came after them who may have attributed lies to the companions. They may have fabricated isnads of hadeeth and then labelled it as authentic.
“and just to take the Qoraan from them because you want to believe in something but refute the rest of the things they passed on”
The rest of the things are disputable. It is disputable if they really did pass on anything else. And even if they did, it has no place in Islam because the Qoraan does not say it does. What you are forgetting is that hadeeth are attributed to companions, but it does not mean they are REALLY from the. A corrupt Islamic government could easily create a bunch of hadeeth with isnad and those who oppose it are silenced, and then it becomes the norm to accept it. I suggest you read about the Council of Nicea in 325 at which the doctrine of the Trinity was affirmed as orthodoxy. As muslims, we know the trinity is false. Similarly, hadeeth have no value to Allah. If they did, Allah would have said so in the Qoraan so that we are guided.
“Not even a single sect existed back then that refuted ahadeeth completely, this is a proof which can not be refuted also.”
You do not know that for a fact. There may have been a big uproar, but the ruler orders for them to be silenced by any means necessary and then hadeeth did not become controversial after that. And then most people, including you, have taken hadeeth as part of Islam when Allah said no such thing.
“I’ve been able to refute all of your points”
No you haven’t.
“Read the article on this page which shows you the meaning of bayyana.“
The article is misleading, but you don’t want to discuss that, do you? It doesn’t suit your agenda, does it? You have not proven that the only possible meaning of bayyana is “explain”. It is completely ridiculous to give it this meaning in the context of the Qoraan when Allah himself has called the Qoraan a clear (bayyana) book. So you are only following your own desire to translate it as “explain”. Did you know bayyana also can mean to “make manifest”. But you want to shove this meaning under the carpet, don’t you? Instead you try and show cherry picked translations that suit your devilish agenda. So you have not irrefutably proven that the Prophet explained the Qoraan and now you have dug a deeper hole for yourself. Your whole claim for hadeeth rested on your claim that the Prophet explained the Qoraan, and even that you cannot irrefutably prove from Allah’s verses.
“You come and now act like the meaning of teaching means to ” simply convey knowledge ”, you give it that meaning your self, and then come and say to me that I give teaching another meaning with explaining it, though, it is you qoraniyyoon who do it and say ” teaching CAN ALSO mean to simply convey ”, you are leaving the words original meaning and are looking for another meaning of it which supports your claim, and with that proving you are giving it another meaning than it’s original meaning.”
Tell me, what is the arabic root word for “teach”? You said I am leaving the words original meaning. So tell me, what is the original meaning? Is it “explain” or is it something else? You are digging a deeper hole for yourself yet again.
“I don’t have to prove that ” bayana ” means more than ” simply conveying ” it”
Do you even know the words you are translating as “explain” and “teach” have two different root words? I suggest you look these words up in Lane’s Lexicon. It does not look like you even know what the root words mean for them.
“I am not adding anything nor explaining it, I am taking the word as it is, with the first thought it arises, and with it’s first meaning, the most common meaning it is often used.”
It looks like you don’t have any proper understanding for these root words
“Bayyana means explaining, making it clear.”
It looks like you lack knowledge in this area and I suggest you look at Lanes Lexicon. The brother you are talking about has only cherry picked a meaning that suits his agenda.
“The original articles clearly makes that clear also.”
Who cares what the article says if it is misleading?
“why did Allah s.w.a. use another word instead of a word that would make that very clear.”
Allah did make it very clear but people have twisted the meaning. When Allah said the Qoraan is clear book he used the arabic root bayyana. The word you translated as “explain” also has the same root! Does a message that is clear need explaining? No! So this rules out that bayyana means ”explain” in the context of the Prophet. Now you have to ask yourself, why did these corrupt scholars translate bayyana as “clear” in one place, but when they need to justify hadeeth they translate bayyana as “explain”. You have dug a deeper hole for yourself but I hope this unveils the level of corruption that scholars have been involved in. A clear book that has not been revealed needs to be made manifest and bayyana has this meaning. I really hope this helps you open your eyes brother.
“Does explain and teach in your language mean ” simply conveying knowledge ”?”
Firstly English is not Arabic. You are confusing two arabic root words with each other. You are using english words instead of going back to their arabic root.
“IF THE QORAAN IS ENOUGH THEN EXPLAIN THOSE THINGS“
Where does the Qoraan say they need further explanation? Where does the Qoraan say there is a missing explanation or details about prayer? You need to answer these first. Let’s do things in logical order, shall we?
“the Qoraan says pray, it gives us some times to pray, where does it explain how to pray?”
Does Allah say it needs explaining? First answer that.
“And to say that information cannot be trusted, it is very simple, for the 10000th time, then the Qoraan cannot be trusted also, it is so simple.”
You are using flawed logic. If Allah protects one and not the other, then your argument is not valid.
“his EXAMPLE isn’t explained in the Qoraan”
Are you 100% sure about that? Because you are wrong. One example of the prophet is in 109:1-2. On top of that, the Qoraan does not say to find the Prophet’s example in hadeeth or to document his life.
“Yeah i am suggesting that you cannot pray if you dont know how to, you cannot do salaah without knowing how to, and if the book explained everything, it has to be in there.”
The Qoraan gives information on prayer and it does not say this information is not enough. It is very simple. You are failing to prove the Qoraan is inadequate on its own.
“WHERE IS THAT SALAAH EXPLAINED?”
The first question is, where does the Qoraan say more explanation about Salaah is required?
“You say not to obey the messenger, dont try to talk around it.”
This is not true. I never said this and it does not make sense for a Qoraan alone muslim to say this. We obey the messenger by obeying the message he brought. Its very simple.
“This ayah can only mean 2 things”
Where does the Qoraan say it can only mean 2 things?
“You have no proof from the Qoraan that obeying him is only obeying Qoraan.”
The Qoraan tells us to obey the messenger but it does not say to do this by following another source. Its very simple but your mind is blocked. Also read 4:80.
“You don’t even have a source about where the Qoraan came from.”
The Qoraan is the source about where the Qoraan came from. I don’t need any other source. Unlike you, I don’t think Allah’s words and book are inadequate. You twist the book to justify baseless hadeeth.
“For ahadeeth we have the science of ahadeeth”
Did Allah say there is such a thing as science of ahadeeth? No.
“what is your prove that dhikr means only Qoraan”
Read 3:58, 36:69 and 41:41. You are digging a hole for yourself. Where does it say dhikr means hadeeth? Your mind is blocked.
“So Allah protected the book, but the deen he completed is lost?”
I never said the deen is lost. Where does it say that deen is based on more than Qoraan?
“first you have to prove that book is indeed as it came out of the mouth of the prophet.”
It is Allah who guards his book. Don’t you believe what Allah says in 15:9?
“many of your arguments are false”
“I simply come with historical facts”
Where does the Qoraan give importance to history after the Qoraan? If it doesn’t, then there is no reason why you should. And it is difficult to know what REALLY happened, and it is not important to know either.
“you have to refute that Qoraan was written in the time of our prophet”
Whenever it was written is not important. I believe it is from Allah and that is enough for me.
“No, it only says follow the messenger and what he recites, which means that only those alive could follow the message then.”
“qoraan doesn’t say write it down”
But Allah describes the Qoraan as a book.
Peace.
4:65 says to make Muhammad a judge. 6:114 says to only seek Allah as judge, who has given a Book which is explained in detail.
So Muhammad is a judge only on the basis of Allah’s Book which is fully detailed. This is proven by 5:48.
If we do not accept that Muhammad is a judge only on the basis of Allah’s Book which is fully detailed, then we are suggesting that there is a contradiction between 4:65 and 6:114, and we are also rejecting 6:114.
4:65
“But no, by your Lord, they will not believe until they make you judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in submission.”
6:114
“Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?”
5:48
“And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method.”
to obey the Messenger = obey the message (quran) = to obey God, are inseparable things
are you fools or what? or to obey the messenge = to obey books written by scholars = to obey God ?? something was lost here
ALLAH TAUGHT THE QURAN:
The Most Merciful, Taught the Qur’an 55:1,2
ALLAH EXPLAINED THE QURAN TO THE PROPHET: the Qur’an is explained
“And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran been revealed to him all at once? Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and (WE have arranged it well in arranging)). 25:32
And no question do they bring to thee but ((We))(( reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof)))) . 25:33
Do not move your tongue to hasten it. 75:16 It is WE who will collect it into Quran. 75:17
Once WE recite it, you shall follow such a Quran. 75:18 ((Then it is WE who will explain it. 75:19))
And (WE) have revealed the Book to you which ((has clear explanation of everything)), 16:89
(WE) had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which ((WE explained in detail)) 7:52
This is how ((WE explain Our revelations in various ways)) 6:105
See how (((WE explain the revelations)), perhaps they may comprehend 6:65
It is such that ((WE clarify the revelations)) to a people who think. 10:24
(((WE have explained in this Quran every kind of example)) 18:54
BOOK FULLY DETAILED:
When it is He Who has revealed to you the Book fully detailed? 6:114
ALLAH MADE THE QURAN EASY:
and WE made the Quran easy to learn 54:17 AND 54:32 AND 54:40
ALLAH DIDNT LEAVE ANYTHING OUT:
WE have not neglected in the Register a thing. 6:38
ALLAH HAS SAID THAT HE WILL PROTECT QURAN FROM CORRUPTION:
WE have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). 15:9
THE MESSAGE ENDED WITH THE COMPLETION OF THE QURAN: THE END
Today I have completed your religion for you 5:3
now you say that following the messenger is to follow books that are supposed to explain the Qur’an, if Allah said He explained the Qur’an and no one else??
The duty of the messenger is only to convey (the message) 5:99
**if There are hundreds of books to explain the Qur’an then Allah has put a burden on us but “He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion” 22:78
Hi Pollyanna! Nice to meet a Quran alone muslim online. I love to discuss Quran Alone Islam. Please do contact me at castle@mailbox.org
Peace
16:44 and 16:64 say that the Quran was given to Muhammad to explain things to people with the Quran. So the Quran explains things. The verses do not say that Muhammad explained the Quran.
Hi Gary Oates
I recommend you read this article again. Your claim that the Quran explains things, my question to you is, why does Allah need Prophet Muhammad to explain? Read the verse carefully,
With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), THAT YOU MAY EXPLAIN clearly to men WHAT IS SENT DOWN TO THEM, and that they may give thought.[Quran 16:44]
The above passage says that the person who will explain the Quran is the Prophet. Read the words “THAT YOU MAY EXPLAIN clearly to men WHAT IS SENT DOWN TO THEM”.
Your claim that somehow the Quran explains things, why does the Prophet Muhammed need to explain, since the Quran is already explained in the first place (as you claimed)?
As shown, the person who explains the Quran is the Prophet.
If 16:43 and 16:44 are read together, it can be seen that “what is sent down to THEM” is referring to the people that received previous revelations, not Muhammad’s own followers. 16:44 is not about Muhammad explaining the Quran to his own followers. It is about Muhammad receiving the Quran from Allah, which explains (to the people that received previous revelations) what was sent down to THEM, “and that they may give thought”. We know from reading the Quran that it addresses people that received previous revelations. Muhammad explained what was sent down to people that received previous revelations, with the revelation that he himself received. 16:44 has nothing to do with explaining, or needing to explain, the Quran. It is important to stress the first part of 16:44, “With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers)”.
Hi Gary Oates let’s go over it again shall we.
And We have not sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (O Muhammad SAW), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ [16:44]
There is no going around it this passage. Allah makes it evidently clear that Prophet explains to the people (previous revelations) what is sent down to them. This is the exact words, “that you may explain clearly unto them”. I gather that you don’t believe the Quran need to be explained, my question is, why does Allah state “that you may explain clearly unto them”? What is the need for the Prophet to “explain”, if the Quran is self explained already? Another thing, if Prophet Muhammed explained to people i.e., previous revelations, what makes you think that Prophet Muhammed (p) didnt explain to his own people (Muslim) if they some didn’t understand some of the Quran? Could you answer this question as well, say if some of Muslims at the time of the Prophet struggled understanding some of the verses of the Quran, do you believe that the Prophet would ignore them, since the Quran is ‘fully detailed’ as you Quran-aloners assert? I made pointed this out in this article. I don’t know if you read it. This is what I wrote,
Musa (alayhi salaam) said to him, “May I have your company so that you teach me some of the rightful knowledge you have been given.” [Quran 18 66]
A prophet of Allah humbled himself to take knowledge from a man more knowledgeable than him. He used to receive revelations from Allah, yet he was in need of knowledge from someone who knows more? Isn’t that something to THINK about?
If Allah taught Prophet Muhammed (p) what the verses of the Quran mean, what makes you Hadith rejecters think that you don’t need a teacher to teach you? If all the Prophet (p) had to do, to understand the Quran, is to read the verses. Why then does Allah say in this verse 53;5 HE is the one that teaches the prophet what verses of the Quran mean? Here is the passage below, where Allah says that he one who teaches the Prophet.
Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed. He was taught by one Mighty in Power” [Quran53:3-5]
16:44 does not show that the Prophet provided any explanation on top of what the Quran explains. The verse shows that the Prophet explained things to people of previous scriptures WITH the Quran, i.e. the Quran itself provides the explanation to people of previous scriptures. This is why 16:44 says “We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), THAT…”. The word “that” is important here. It shows the Quran was sent for a purpose. What is the purpose mentioned in 16:44? The verse shows that the purpose of sending the Quran is to explain something WITH IT. In the context of 16:44, it doesn’t make sense that the purpose of sending the Quran is for it to be explained when it is sent to explain something to the people of previous scriptures. 16:44 is not about explaining the Quran if people do not understand some of it. Regarding the word “teach”, this is to do with imparting knowledge (ilm) that a person did not have before. The Quran is a Book detailed with knowledge (7:52). The Prophet did not know the verses of the Quran before they were “taught”/imparted to him. It is not about teaching the Prophet what the verses mean. It is simply about teaching the Prophet the actual verses. The Prophet taught the verses of the Quran by telling us what they are. Before he told us what they are, we didn’t have any knowledge from him about what they are. So he taught us what the verses are. This does not imply that he taught us what the verses mean.
I concur with you. The Quran is a Book of explanation. Explain what? Let the Quran answer this question
Q:05:48 – And We have revealed to you, [The Prophet], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it [THE FURQAN] from the BOOK [UMM-al-KITAB] and as a criterion over it [THE FURQAN]. So judge between them by what ALLAH has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had ALLAH willed, HE would have made you one nation [united in religion], but to test you in what HE has given you; so race to good. To ALLAH is your return all together, and HE will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
X-reference with
Q:10:37 – And not is this Qur’an to be produced by other than ALLAH, but a confirmation of what preceded it [THE FURQAN] and EXPLAIN IN DETAIL THE BOOK [UMM AL KITAB], about which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the worlds.
X-reference with
Q:11:01 – Alif, Lam, Ra. A Book – its verses Judgemental then EXPLAINED IN DETAIL from [one who is] Wise and Acquainted [THE PROPHET].
The Prophet was sent to MANKIND, not only the Arabs, wherever he went, there was a Messenger, who assist him in his propagation of the Quranic message in the language of the Messenger’s people.
Q14:04 – And We did not send message of a Messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them……
The Prophet’s duty was to explain the Umm al Kitab that was sent to him to Mankind. The explanation of the Umm al Kitab was recorded in the Quran in several languages by the respective messengers assigned to his people!
Q:15:87 – And We have certainly given you, [O Muhammad], several of the second one, that is, the Great Qur’an.
Quran is the second devine Book after the Book of Musa [OT]….
Q:28:48 – So when the truth came to them from Us, they said, “Why was he not given like that which was given to Moses?” Did they not disbelieve in that which was given to Moses before? They said, “Two works of magic supporting each other, and indeed we are, in both, disbelievers.”
So its explicit that the Quran was the second Book of explanation beside the Book of Moses [Furqan] which was also a Book that explain everything – 07:145.
Further, the Prophet was not an Arab. He was an A3jamiy speaker, meaning, a language that was widely spoken in the Persian Empire and the Levant up to the present Turkey.
16:103 – And We certainly know that they say, “Only teaches him a human being” THE TONGUE OF THE ONE THEY REFER TO HIM IS A3JAMIY and THIS A LANGUAGE 3RABIY CLEAR…….
The above verse proves that the Prophet was an A3jamiy speaker, taught someone the Quran. Obviously, it was the Prophet who was teaching an individual and that individual happened to be an Arab, considering the fact that this Quran is the Arabic version, on of the several sent to the Prophet! That Arab student could only be an Arab Messenger, taught by the Prophet in order to propagate the Quranic message to his people the Arabs. To confirm this, let the Quran tells us…..
Q:09:26 – Then ALLAH sent down HIS tranquillity upon HIS Messenger and upon the believers and sent down military assistance whom you all did not see and punished those who disbelieved. And that is the recompense of the disbelievers.
X-reference with
Q:09:40 – If ye help him not, certainly ALLAH helped him when those who disbelieve drove him out, [Being] the second of two; when they two were in hostile territory, when he [the First Person] said unto his comrade [the second person]: Grieve not. Indeed, ALLAH is with us. Then ALLAH sent down His tranquillity upon him and supported him with military assistance ye all cannot see, and made the word of those who disbelieved the lowest, while ALLAH’s Word it was that became the uppermost. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Study verses 26 & 40 of chapter 09 carefully. You will find that in verse 26, ALLAH provided
1. Military assistance to the Messenger, that no one saw
In verse 40, ALLAH helped
1. “Him” who was also the second person of the two person in hostile territory, whom ALLAH provided assistance, as mentioned in verse 40,
2. The First Person assured the second person [THE FIRST PERSON COMPANION] not to grieve and that ALLAH was with them,
3. Then ALLAH SEND DOWN HIS TRANQUILITY UPON “HIM” [WHO WAS ALSO THE MESSENGER MENTIONED IN VERSE 26],
4. ALLAH SUPPORTED “HIM” [THE MESSENGER MENTIONED IN VERSE 26] with military assistance that no one saw.
The question is who was the 1st Person???? OBVIOULY, THE 1ST PERSON WAS THE PROPHET AND THE SECOND PERSON WAS THE ARAB MESSENGER WHO WAS GIVEN MILITARY ASSISTANCE THAT NO ONE SAW!
I acquired a lot of knowledge from this argument.
I am very excited to see how 2:7 works. You guys have invested so much in your fathers’ religion, you miss the whole point of Islam. Mushriks don’t know that they are mushriks, When asked, they say they only follow God. Muhammad will say “my people have deserted this Quran”. Hint hint…
Crazy claim of Rashad Khalifa and Khalifates about “the role of explaining Al-Quran”
Kindly see the Muslim Perspective April 1989, which says “the sole mission of the Prophet Muhammad (P) was to deliver the Quran”. It further says the Prophet was forbidden in 75:16-19 from explaining the Quran! Addionally it says Khalifates have learnt from 55:1-2 that God is the only explainer of the Quran!
Prayer was itself for teaching but not for just delivering the scripture!
Allah [SWTA] has clearly revealed the prayer of Abraham (P) seeking for a messenger to arrive among his decendents and that prayer was not only just to recite Allah’s revelations like a deliverer but also to teach them the scripture and wisdom!
If you are a teacher working in a school and if you start reading the text books in the classrooms without explaining anything to the students and if you claim that you have taught everything to the students, then either you would be considered as mad or the discoverer of this new ideology [i.e teaching means not explaining anything] Dr. Khalifa would be considered as mad!
Let us view Abraham’s (P) prayer:
[2:129)] Our Lord! Send among them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your Verses and teach them the book and Al Hikmah, and purify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.”
Answer of Allah [SWTA] for the prayer of Abraham (P):
[2:151] Similarly, We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, reciting to you Our Verses and purifying you, and teaching you the book and the Hikmah, and teaching you that which you used not to know.
Kindly note down the valuable information here and that is Dr. Khalifa was saying that already all religious duties were well established by Abraham (P) and nothing was new that has been brought by Muhammad (P) from his Lord!
But Allah has clearly mentioned that “teaching you that which you used not to know” in 2:151 clarifying that the form of Worship Practices which were brought by Prophet Muhammad (P) was not known by the Arabs of his time.
Also Khalifa’s ideology [i.e. already religious rituals has been brought by Abraham (P) therefore Prophet Muhammad (P) doesn’t brought anything new or even if he has brought something new that cannot be crucial as it was already there before Muhammad (P)] is not Quranic because not only Prophet Abraham (P) but all the messengers have been blessed with religious rituals which are differ from one messenger to another.
Kindly see the following verse, which confirms that religious rituals were different from one messenger to another:
[22:67] “For every religion We have appointed rites which they perform. So, let the disbelievers not contend with you over the matter but invite them to your Lord. Indeed, you are upon straight guidance.”
Also kindly see the following verse, which confirms Abraham (P) has received scripture: [87:19] “The scriptures of Abraham and Moses.”
But we have been commanded to follow the scripture given to Muhammad (p) but not the scripture given to Abraham (P)! The old scriptures are limited to a particular period and Allah [SWTA] has made them to disappear from the state of how it was originally revealed.
The set of ayaths which has been twisted by Khalifates ‘In-order to falsely claim that already all religious duties were well established by Abraham (P), therefore Prophet Muhammad (P) doesn’t brought anything new or even if he has brought something from his Lord that cannot be crucial as it was already there before Muhammad (P)’, are listed below:
1) [2:135] “And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.”
2) [3:67] Abraham was neither a “Jew” nor a “Christian”, but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.
3) [3:95] Say: Allah speaketh truth. So follow the religion of Abraham, the upright. He was not of the idolaters.
4) [4:125]Who can be better in religion than one who submits his face to Allah and he is a good-doer, and follows the religion of Abraham, Islamic Monotheism? And Allah did take Abraham as an intimate friend.
5) [16:123] “Then We revealed to thee: Follow the religion of Abraham, the upright one; and he was not of the polytheists.”
6) [6:161] Say, ‘My Lord has guided me unto a straight path – the right religion, the religion of Abraham, the upright. And he was not of those who associated gods with ALLAH.
By showing the above list of verses, Khalifates argue that even Muhammad was commanded to follow the religion of Abraham, therefore the prophet-hood or messenger-ship of Muhammad (P) was just to deliver the Quran and follow the religion of Abraham, but nothing crucial!
Our first question: While Khalifates’ are claiming that the history of prophet Muhammad and Al-Quran (P) are not protected but corrupted, from where did they get a purified history and scripture of Abraham who lived several thousand years before Prophet Muhammad (P), in-order to refer and follow the religious rituals followed by Abraham?
Our second question: If you claim that the religious rituals followed by Abraham are exactly the same as what prophet Muhammad has followed and they are well established from Abraham till today then how come they are not found practiced anywhere else except among the followers of Muhammad (P) (i.e not among Christians or Jews)!
Our Argument-1: As per verse ‘22:67’ which we have seen above confirms that religious rituals differs from one messenger to another, therefore even-though prophet Abraham might have followed the religious duties which we are following today it doesn’t mean the rituals are exactly the same!
Our Argument-2: If we consider that Abraham (P) might have followed exactly the same rituals which we are observing today, then we can be sure that they were corrupted after Abraham (P) and therefore it has been restored back to the believers by Allah [SWTA] through Prophet Muhammad [P]. Following verse confirms these arguments:
Religious rituals followed in Kaaba before Prophet Muhammad [P]: [8:35] “Their Salat (prayer) at the House (Ka’bah at Makkah) was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. Therefore taste the punishment because you used to disbelieve.”
Khalifa tried all his best to misinterpret and blackout the meaning of the above verse-8:35 [which is a Mukkamath verse!], in-order to establish his personal views about rituals followed by Arabs during the era of Prophet Muhammad!
Khalifates cleverly blackout the following verse which confirms that the real guidance and great blessing of Allah [SWTA] is the same old ideology which was also given to Abraham i.e. monotheism has been re-established by Prophet Muhammad [P] as per Allah’s will and command:
[3:68] Lo! Those of mankind who have the best claim to Abraham are those who followed him, and this Prophet and those who believe (with him); and Allah is the Protecting Guardian of the believers.”
If you verify all the verses listed above [i.e. 2:135, 3:67, 3:95, 4:125, 16:123, 6:161], and if you could verify its contexts, you can very well find that the phrase ‘follow the religion of Abraham’ means it directly points out to follow “monotheism” challenging the people of the old scriptures, who were closer to polytheism during the era of Muhammad (P), but it doesn’t ask us to follow the rituals followed by Abraham (P), who lived several thousand years before Muhammad (P)!
Another important comparison has to be done here between three different verses and they are 2:128, 2:129, and 2:151:
Abraham not only prayed for a messenger to be raised among his descendants but also prayed for showing them (the descendants) their rituals!:
[2:128] Our Lord! And make us submissive unto Thee and of our seed a nation submissive unto Thee, and show us our ways of worship, and relent toward us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Relenting, the Merciful.
Abraham’s (P) prayer for teaching his descendants the scripture and wisdom:
[2:129)] Our Lord! Send among them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your Verses and teach them the book and Al-Hikmah, and purify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.”
Answers of Allah [SWTA] for the prayer of Abraham (P)
[2:151] Similarly, We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, reciting to you Our Verses and purifying you, and teaching you the book and the Hikmah, and teaching you that which you used not to know.
The above comparison confirms that when there was already the scripture of Abraham exists, Abraham (P) has not only prayed for a deliverer of a new scripture for his descendants, but he do prayed for sending a messenger to teach them scripture, wisdom, and the ways of performing their worship (rituals)!
Allah has replied that he has sent Muhammad (P) for teaching Abraham’s descendants the book and the Hikmah and teaching them that which they never knew [2:151]!
The above comparison has confirmed that all the arguments of Khalifa are nothing but his personal opinions and they are not Quranic! For further confirmation kindly look into the following verses, which also confirms that that the form of Worship Practices which were brought by Prophet Muhammad (P) was not known by the Arabs of his time:
[2:239] ‘And if you fear (an enemy), perform Salat (pray) on foot or riding. And when you are in safety, offer the Salat (prayer) in the manner He has taught you, which you knew not (before).’
‘He taught you what you never knew’, means the Arabs during that period never knew the religious rituals before the arrival of Muhammad (P)!
Have you got the crucial point in comparison?! The same term [i.e. which you knew not (before)], which is used in verse number – ‘2:151’ has been used in 2:239! I.e. In 2:239 Allah informs that ‘offer the Salat (prayer) in the manner He has taught you, which you knew not (before).’And in 2:151 Allah [SWTA] confirms that He has taught us things which we never knew before, through the messenger that he has sent now;
{2:151} ‘Similarly, We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, reciting to you Our Verses and purifying you, and teaching you the book and the Hikmah, and teaching you that which you used not to know’.
Another valuable point has to be noted down here and it is; eventhough Allah [SWTA] has mentioned that ‘He taught us the Salat in 2:239’ but actually Allah [SWTA] has not directly taught us how to do it in the Quran but has inspired his prophet to demonstrate it, except for some basic information about Salat have been mentioned in Quran here and there in a scattered way. This is because it is not Allah [SWTA] to write a book on Salat or visit to earth to demonstrate it but the roles and responsibilities of establishing the Salat has been given to the Messenger of Allah, the unlettered Prophet!
The same way when it is coming to Explaining Quran, Allah has explained many things in the Quran but the actual role and responsibility of explaining the Quran has been entrusted to Prophet Muhammad as part of his mission, to be get accomplished. Kindly note that in the answer of Allah [SWTA] -2:151- for the prayer of Abraham (P), which clearly confirms that the Messenger is not just a deliverer of the scripture but acts as an explaining authority of Quran among the believers! Kindly see the list of verses given below clearly states that the role of Prophet Muhammad (P) was not just delivering i.e. just reciting the verses of Allah to the believers but to explain it as well.
We can realize that Allah [SWTA] has commanded his Prophet to accomplish the role of explaining the Quran through the following verses:
[16:44] “With clear signs and books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you the reminder, that you may explain clearly to mankind what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.”
[16:64] “And We have not sent down the book (the Qur’an) to you, except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe.”
[62:2] “He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them, and teaching them the book and Al-Hikmah. And verily, they had been before in manifest error.”
[5:19] “O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a pause of the Messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a Warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a Warner; and Allah has power over all things.”
[5:15] “O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and pass over much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light and a plain-book.”
[2:129] “Our Lord, Send among them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your Verses and teach them the book and Al Hikmah, and purify them. Verily! You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.”
[2:151] Similarly, We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, reciting to you Our Verses and purifying you, and teaching you the book and the Hikmah, and teaching you that which you used not to know.
Now let us come to the arguments of Khalifa about explaining the Quran:
Let us view the verses 75:16-19 to find out does the prophet has been forbidden from explaining the Quran?!
[75:16] “Do not move your tongue too quickly to recite the Quran.”
[75:17] “We shall be responsible for its collection and its recitation.”
[75:18] “When We recite it, follow its recitation.”
[75:19] “We shall be responsible for its explanation.”
Verse 75:19 only says: “We shall be responsible for its explanation” but it don’t say that the Prophet has been forbidden from explaining the Quran!
If we consider the misinterpretation of Khalifa and conclude that Prophet has been forbidden from explaining the Quran based on 75:19 then we would also need to end up with a conclusion that prophet has been prohibited from reciting and collecting the Quran based on verse [75:17] which says “We shall be responsible for its collection and its recitation.”
Therefore compare [75:19] “We shall be responsible for its explanation” and [75:17] “We shall be responsible for its collection and its recitation!”
Muslim Perspective ‘April-1989’ additionally says that the Khalifates have learnt from 55:1-2 that God is the only explainer of the Quran! Let us view those verses to find out is there is any truth in Khalifa’s argument:
[55:1] “The Most Merciful [55:1] Taught the Qur’an”.
Nobody has the second thought that Allah has taught the Quran but when it comes to the question ‘to whom Allah has taught the Quran and who would teach us the Quran?’ Quran very well explains it as below:
… that you may explain clearly to mankind what is sent down to them… [16:44]
[16:64] “And We have not sent down the book (the Qur’an) to you, except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ…
[62:2] “He it is Who sent among the unlettered ones a Messenger from among themselves, reciting to them His Verses, purifying them, and teaching them the book and Al-Hikmah…
[5:19] “O followers of the Book! Indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a pause of the Messengers…
[5:15] “O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture…
[2:129] “Our Lord, Send among them a Messenger of their own, who shall recite unto them Your Verses and teach them the book and Al-Hikmah, and purify them…
[2:151] Similarly, We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, reciting to you Our Verses and purifying you, and teaching you the book and the Hikmah, and teaching you that which you used not to know.
Before we could conclude this chapter let us cite few examples to understand the role of explaining, with the verse [5:6]:
[5:6] O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.”
Now when it comes to ablution Quran says wash your face and here comes the deal! When I wash my face by-default the dust in my eyes [which is in my face] get cleaned but the dirty in the nose or mouth doesn’t get cleaned even-though both the organs are located in my face!
Is that the right way of obeying the order of Al-Mighty? Also the same verse 5:6 says ‘rub your heads’, now I have a reasonable question here and that is whether to clean the ears as well or to leave the ears unclean? Remember the ears are located in the same organ i.e head-which we are, suppose to clean during our ablution!
The same way in the same verse 5:6 it has been mentioned that the necessity for taking bath before performing our prayers are two! 1) If one of us come out from the closet, 2) if anyone have had contact with women!
Also see verse 4-43 says we need to take bath if we come out of the closet: [4-43] “O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunk, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you come from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving”
Is that mandatory to take bath every-time after we complete the process of evacuation?! Who would explain whether nose and mouth should be included in ablution as they are parts of the face and whether ears should be included in the ablution as they are parts of our head,or those have to be neglected and ignored from cleaning?
May be if Khalifa is alive he may come-up with a new calculation saying that this same verse number matches with that verse and that same sura number match with some other criteria so that such parts have to be included or omitted and the blind followers of Khalifa might have proclaimed it as a mathematical miracle!
Once more the above comparisons, discussions, explanations may well confirm that all the arguments of Khalifa about the role of explaining the Quran, are nothing but his personal opinions and they are not Quranic!
Finally read the following and judge yourself:
[4:061] “When the (hypocrites) are told to refer to God’s revelations and to the Messenger, they try to find excuses to stay away from you (Muhammad).”
Dear Brothers and sisters,
I have written a detailed book called “Critical Evaluation of Rashad Khalifa, with Quran-Alone”; this small book is the result of years of data gathered interacting with people for and against Rashad Khalifa in internet forums and in real life, including my personal experience and research.
Many have contributed to this book, directly and indirectly, knowingly and unknowingly. I request all of you very much to kindly assist me for this e-book to reach all your appropriate contacts for two reasons:
1) To warn the Humanity to be aware of the tricky works of Khalifa.
2) And our response to the deviant group {Khalifa’s group} is comprehensive and clear.
Here I wish to share a chapter from my e-book as a sample for the contents of my e-book, which would break-out and throw away all false claims of Khalifa:
Chapter-6 THE FINAL MESSENGER-SHIP!?
Based on verse 33:40 Khalifa claimed that Muhammad [P] is only the last prophet but not the last messenger! Let us view the same verse:
[33:40] “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
Regarding the above verse, Khalifates raise a question; why did Allah has not mentioned Muhammad [PBUH] as last messenger over here, but has mentioned only as the last prophet?!
By viewing the above argument we can easily understand their limited knowledge when it comes to Quran! We can see that both humans and Angels are mentioned as messengers in Quran but only the humans have been mentioned as prophets in the Quran. Therefore mentioning as last messenger wouldn’t make any sense when we view the following verses:
Both Angels and Humans are Allah’s Messengers
In-order to know that both angels and humans are Allah [SWTA]’s messengers kindly view the following verse:
[22:75] “Allah chooses Messengers from both angels and human beings. God is All-hearing and All-aware.”
Also see what Allah says about Angels in the following verses:
[11:69] “There came Our messengers to Abraham with glad tidings. They said, “Peace!” He answered, “Peace!” and hastened to entertain them with a roasted calf.”
[11:77] “When Our messengers came to Lot, he was grieved on their account and felt himself powerless (to protect) them. He said: “This is a distressful day.”
[11:81] (The Messengers) said: “O Lot! We are Messengers from thy Lord! By no means shall they reach thee! Now travel with thy family while yet a part of the night remains, and let not any of you look back: but thy wife (will remain behind): To her will happen what happens to the people. Morning is their time appointed: Is not the morning nigh?”
[6:61] He is the irresistible, (watching) from above over His worshippers, and He sets guardians over you. At length, when death approaches one of you, Our messengers take his soul, and they never fail in their duty.
[7:37] “Who are more unjust than those who invent falsehoods against God and reject His revelations? These will have their share which is ordained for them and when Our Messengers come to them to cause them to die and ask them, “Where are those whom you had been worshiping besides Allah?” they will reply, “We had gone astray from the path of God.” Thus, they will testify against their own souls by confessing their disbelief.”
[10:21] “When people are granted mercy after having suffered hardship, they begin to plot against Our signs. Say, Allah is most swift in His plans. Our messengers record all that you plot.”
[15:57] “He said, O Messengers, what is your task?”.
[19:19] “He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.”
Therefore as messengers are sent from both humans and angels, but only humans are sent as prophets, we could very well expect the phrase “last prophet but not the phrase last messenger in [33:40]” as messengers {Angels} are continuously coming and executing various tasks as quoted in the above Quran verses.
Another verse that has been quoted by Khalifa and his followers to try to prove that Muhammad (P) is not the last messenger is given below: [40:34] “Joseph came to you before with illustrious evidence but you still have doubts about what he brought. When he passed away, you said, “God will never send any Messenger after him.” Thus does God causes to go astray the skeptical transgressing people.”
Now let us discuss about the verse “40:34” Where this verse says that Prophet Muhammad [P] is not the last messenger! Is this a verse where it says that messengers are yet to come after Muhammad (P)! No-where, no way! This verse explaining the situation during and after Joseph’s (p) lifetime!
We all knew that after Joseph a lot of messengers has arrived but is there is any verse that says after Muhammad (P) there are any more messengers yet to come? This is a same technique, which Khalifa used to twist the meaning of various parts of Quran and gave misinterpretations for various verses and a few samples are listed below:
1) Until the age of 40 if death reaches somebody he would directly go to heaven!
2) A rich believer is better than a poor believer!
3) Number-19 is a great miracle!
4) Cutting the hand of a thief is a satanic practice!
5) Abraham (p) was deceived by Satan to kill his son in the name of sacrifice! Etc, Etc, Etc.,
Now let us see the verses that confirm that Muhammad is the final messenger of Islam:
[33:40] “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”
[5:3] “…This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion…”
33:40 has confirmed that the prophet-hood has been completed with the arrival of Muhammad (P) and 5:3 confirmed that the religion has been perfected with the arrival of Muhammd (P) and as a sign of the completion of Allah’s favour; Allah [SWTA] has approved the religion-Islam for us.
Also the following verses confirms that Prophet Muhammad is the messenger and mercy for the whole Humanity, Universe, Warner for the Humans and Jinns [6:19], Arabs, the people of the scripture, who was awaited for a very long time!
[25:1] “Blessed is He who sent down the Criterion upon His Servant that he may be to the universe [ ] a Warner.”
[21:107] “And We did not send you (O Muhammad) except as a Mercy to the universe [لِّلْعَالَمِينَ].”
[34:28] “And We have not sent you except comprehensively to mankind as a bringer of good tidings and a warner. But most of the people do not know.”
[22:49] “Say, ‘O Mankind, I am but a plain Warner to you’.”
[6:19] “And this Qur’an was revealed to me that I may warn you thereby and whomever it reaches”.
[7:158] Say, “O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth.
There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided.”
[5:19] “O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a pause of the Messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.”
[61: 6] “And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.” But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, “This is obvious magic.”
Kindly note-down the most effective argument here and that is the word “pause” appears in 5:19 is well clarified in 61:6 and that is until Jesus (P) there were messengers came one after another or lived two together almost continuously, but for the first time in the history after Jesus (P), there was a very long pause for the most awaited, well prophesied, a messenger and mercy for the whole humanity and for the universe [Humans and Jinns] Muhammad (P) has come as the messenger of the covenant and the final messenger, confirming all previous scriptures:
[6:92] And this (the Qur’an) is a blessed book which We have sent down, confirming (the revelations) which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (i.e. Makkah) and all those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it (the Qur’an), and they are constant in guarding their Salaat (prayers).
[7:157] “Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in what they have of the Torah and the Gospel, who enjoins upon them what is right and forbids them what is wrong and makes lawful for them the good things and prohibits for them the evil and relieves them of their burden and the shackles which were upon them. So they, who have believed in him, honored him, supported him and followed the light which was sent down with him – it is those who will be the successful.”
Note: As Allah [SWTA] knew the past, present and future, he has well clarified that wherever the term ‘Messenger’, was anonymously used to point out a human, throughout the Quran that directly relates to Muhammad (P) through the verse 7:157!
As many fake messengers are going to arrive after Muhammad (P), Allah [SWTA] has clarified in 7:157 that the anonymous usage or application of the term ‘Messenger’ in Quran pointing a human meant straight to the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel i.e Muhammad (P)!
Note: Khalifa has proclaimed that only Prophets received scriptures but not the messengers, whereas Quran confirms that messengers received scriptures: In-order to fool the believers that Khalifa has been sent as a Messenger, Khalifates claims that only Prophets received scriptures but not the messengers, therefore they can cleverly claim that Khalifa has come as a messenger without any scripture but Quran confirms that whatever has been revealed (told) to Muhammad [P] had been also revealed (may be with slight variations) to the earlier messengers:
[41:43]Nothing is said to you, [O Muhammad], except what was already said to the messengers before you. Indeed, your Lord is a possessor of forgiveness and a possessor of painful penalty.
Also verses like 3:184, 57:25, 35:25 confirms that all messengers received scriptures:
[3:184] Then if they deny you, [O Muhammad] – so were messengers denied before you, who brought clear proofs and written ordinances and the enlightening Scripture.
[57:25] “Indeed We have sent Our Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance (justice) that mankind may keep up justice. And We brought forth iron wherein is mighty power (in matters of war), as well as many benefits for mankind, that Allah may test who it is that will help Him (His religion), and His Messengers in the unseen. Verily, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty.”
[35:25] “And if they belie you, those before them also belied. Their Messengers came to them with clear signs, and with the scriptures, and the book giving light.”
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